Sperry Wash Meeting 9-14 @ 7PM

[ynot]

Terry

With more than due respect, your memory is as bad as your math. I don't know what the heck you are talking about. You and I have never spoken by PM by phone or in person. The T&T group has never had the funding staff or pull to stop the BLM from doing what they darn well pleased. Nor have I ever been a successful financial consultant or an unsuccessful one for that matter. If the present manager is a female and has been there 8 years then the manager I speak of was clearly before her. Again Barstow BLM presented the Sperry Wash trailhead plan in 2000. (Now that I have returned home from the death in my family my notes clearly show it was posted west of the grade in first in 2000, 20001 and 2002. You do keep notes of your conversations with those that have never done you wrong don't you?) It’s still posted there to the best of my knowledge which was last season. Again please ask those who have never done you wrong by what Act of Congress was that done? Apparently the female manager wasn't there yet. I'll expect you to eat your own words publicly on this forum.

I could give a crap if there was ever funding for the trail head at Sperry. I give a crap that Bartstow BLM has felt and continues to feel (apparently including those have never done you wrong) free to post as wilderness west of the grade. Frankly it scares the heck out of me that you don’t know anything about where the wilderness is or by what Act of Congress it got there. If you expect people to stay out of wilderness GET IT POSTED RIGHT. Keep the fences from destroying what I enjoy most and that's the grade. Sperry Wash looks like a LA parking lot with all the posts and cable. BTW I also dune but am most active with the T&T group that I started apparently long before your time.

I'm sorry you feel that the only do'ers are those in YOUR group. You are very sadly mistaken but that's the one reason the greenies are so successful. It sickens me to see the trash that's left at Comp Hill and I have picked up a bit and towed a duner or two back to camp including a young child in Sperry Wash with a broken down quad that never should have been there alone and without water in the first place. Exactly how much trash have you picked up on the T&T grade? You won't see many railfans east or for that matter west of the grade as they are there to follow the Tonopah & Tidewater. If you choose to pick nicks it's duners that's are outside of the approved areas not railfans. Perhaps that’s a position you would prefer I take on Wednesday.

Previous loses....yes there have been a few:

The Tecopa ACEC

The post and wire 3 miles before you even get to that ACEC

Valjean Wilderness cutting the grade to Riggs

Wilderness posting on the grade south of the North Pole

The wilderness posting west of the Dumont Wye.

Yet even more post and in Sperry Wash

Wilderness posting west of the grade at Sperry

Wilderness postings west of cuts and north of the filled bridge.

But never mind Terry it will never happen to you and next time you attack someone please get your facts right. I stand corrected, your head is clearly not in the sand at the top of comp hill.

Eli

Eli, I will apoligize right here right now if that wasn't you that I had those conversations with. Negative people all seem to run together in my mind and no I don't keep notes on BS conversations that do no good for anybody.

As far as you being more involved in the T&T, I am sorrry but I am not and have no plans to be. i have enough on my plate at this time. However you came on a Dumont Dunes web site and told us to expect to get screwed. The truth is it sounds like you have been extremelly unsuccessful in your battles on the T&T and other areas of your interest. Maybe you should have asked the duners for help long ago and we could have all come together under one banner. I was not involved in the fight to keep Dumont open until about 7-8 years ago. Before that I was just like most and that is I just wanted to go duning and hang out with friends and have a good time. Fortunely I was asked to help in the operation of a fledgling group called Friends of Dumont Dunes. My focus has been there ever since. Keeping the CBD from closing the area due to a lizard and other BS attempts have been our focus.

I was also very lucky to be asked to join the TRT for Dumont and BLM as a OHV representive for the state of Nevada. Might have been because I was the only one who applied but then again where were you and why did you not jump on the chance to get closer to BLM and to try to right all the injustices you say hapened on your watch?

The BLM is going to continue to post signage and post and cable the area west of the T&T as directed by federal law. Not much you can do after the law is passed. Our best fight is before the law is passed by congress and signed by the president. That's why we are willing to work with the BLM and the surronding area iinterests to keep the balance of their interests and ours. Do I trust them, nope I learned a long time ago upon realizing how much politics are involved in a non political position. Will BLM screw us over, I doubt it as Barstow BLM needs Dumont to survive to keep that office open and operating. You see Dumont is the only well run fee demo operation of any of the Ca. OHV area's. We are used as a model for other dune/fee areas on how to retain the majority of the fee money instead of losing 37% to the vendors as they do in Glamis.

The encroachment west of the TRT and in the surronding areas including Sperry wash is a mix of duners, railheads as you call them and other people who either don't know or don't care about staying out of those areas and that is what brings us to battles like this.

It almost sounds like we are on the same team but totally on different coasts. I am sorry that you were unable to stop the Federal Goverment from closing out areas you didn't want closed but blaming BLM is like blaming the fire department for not saving the pad after the fire, BLM is a arm of the Federal goverment but it IS DIRECTED by Washington on what areas of concern they must close, manage and otherwise care for.

The Barstow area manager is a very reasonable person and in the long period of time I have had dealings with her she has always kept her word and has always had an open mind on things we brought before her. But you canot blame her for posting signs and cabling off closed areas that have been closed due to the Endangered Species act and other Wilderness actions that the CBD and others have successfully gotten passed. Maybe if you had reached out to CORVA, Blue ribbon Colition and other various land advocates you all may have been more successful.

And just so you know Randy Banis who is the chair of the DAC is a huge fan of the T&T and that whole area. I can tell you that he is extremelly well informed about what has happened out there for a very long time, well before I got involved. If you would like an introduction I would be glad to do that for you, he may be able to clear up some misconceptions that I believe you may have about the BLM and their role in all this. I am not a BLM lover but I am a fan of working with someone who has all the power instead of trying to hit them in the head with a hammer everytime I talk to them. Just a different approach I guess?

Again I think we may be closer on some issues then it looks like and I have no ill feelings towards you but again you came on a duners web site and tried to blame duners for the issues you have had in the past before most of us became aware of the issues and became involved in keeping DUMONT open.

I appreciate you picking up trash and helping out a child in the wash(something I hope we would all do) and I invite you to attend the 10th annual FoDD clean-up in March 2012 to see duners working hand in hand with BLM and each other. Just so you know it's the only free weekend of the year. I think that shows how much appreciation of BLM to our attempts to help them.

I closing I have read the Wild river Wilderness bill and am well aware of the 3 designations of the Armagossa river. You need to know that the 5 mile section starting 100 feet east of the Dumont dune crossing starts the "recreation " designation and it continues for 5 miles west of that crossing towards SR127. This again was specifically written into this law by Congressmen McKeon to protect that crossing.

If you want to try to blame duners as the cause of the intrusions into the closed areas on Wed. your more than welcome to however be very aware that your tactics may backfire and it will leave both groups, railfans and duners looking poorly. We need to come together in front of the people in Tecopa as a unified group of concerned OFF_ROADERS. Placing blame on one side or the other just does exactly what they want and have been successful in doing over the last many years when all this land was lost. We have to become one and stay that way to win against the true bastards of this issue not the duners and not the BLM but the Eco-Terroists that have to be stopped.

Again my apoligies to you if it was not you in those old conversations. Again it has been many years and many computers ago, so not all e mails and other notes have been saved or kept from unfotunetly being lost. A computer whiz i am not.

Just to make one last point many of my friends have names for me but be very aware i don't think anyone of them think I have my head anywhere but on my shoulders and my eyes/vision on the horizon of keeping Dumont and as much land open as I can.

Terry

PS. My condolences on the loss in your family. Having been thriugh that more than I care to think about.Ii know the pain and feel for you and yours. My best to your family in these difficult times.

TA

[eli]

Terry

My attacking the duners at the meeting (of which I have an interest admittedly not as great as yours) would serve about as much purpose as your attack on the wrong person.

I did reach out to many groups, attempted to work with the BLM and attempted to find some common ground with the greenies. I understand that Sperry Wash is a Federally approved route and I've watched that route get narrower and narrower over the years. I'm not happy about that but that's a bell rung. I'm not interested in it getting any narrower nor further wilderness postings south of there and west of the grade where the acts are more clear.

Years ago I lead a small group of less than a half dozen vehicles along the T&T. I (we) were approached by a BLM LEO and read the riot act for being in a closed area. I had done my research and had contacted the wilderness expert in the BLM office. Finally I asked the LEO if she knew him. She replied that he was in the back seat of the SUV. I approached the SUV and the back window come down about a half of inch. I introduced myself and asked if I had miss-understood him in any way on the phone. He replied I had not. I asked what the LEOs problem was and he did not reply. I returned to the LEO and told her I couldn't stop her from giving us tickets and taking our vehicles but as confirmed by the expert this wasn't EVEN BLM land let alone wilderness and pointed to my gps. A short time later the greenie was with the BLM Manager was coming from a closed area looking for the only fencing crew IMHO to show it off to her. I have no longer any respect for the BLM.

If you think I'm negative so be it. This isn't about bad people being were they shouldn't be. That's the excuse and that's the history. I do expect the Dumont Duners to continue to get screwed. That's not an attack that's an opinion although somewhat different from yours. You attacked the wrong guy. Apology accepted. When I'm in a better place I might actually have a conversation with you but thus far I haven't. We are in fact from the same ocean but miles apart with our methods. I don't hit the BLM with a pipe neither do I trust them with good reason. The BLM is in fact the power but only in their own mind. They are supposed to be managing the lands for the people. Problem is that we the people are going to continue to get what we always have gotten as long as we continue to do what we have always done which unfortunately wasn't enough. As I said before the BLM has taken ignoring public comment meetings to an art form. It's about time for we the people to tell them NOT ANOTHER INCH and not "well if we let them fence the T&T that doesn't affect me and maybe they will stop there." They won't. I've been there and I've done that and it didn't work.

Eli

Edited September 11, 2011 by eli

[ynot]

Terry

My attacking the duners at the meeting (of which I have an interest admittedly not as great as yours) would serve about as much purpose as your attack on the wrong person.

I did reach out to many groups, attempted to work with the BLM and attempted to find some common ground with the greenies. I understand that Sperry Wash is a Federally approved route and I've watched that route get narrower and narrower over the years. I'm not happy about that but that's a bell rung. I'm not interested in it getting any narrower nor further wilderness postings south of there and west of the grade where the acts are more clear.

Years ago I lead a small group of less than a half dozen vehicles along the T&T. I (we) were approached by a BLM LEO and read the riot act for being in a closed area. I had done my research and had contacted the wilderness expert in the BLM office. Finally I asked the LEO if she knew him. She replied that he was in the back seat of the SUV. I approached the SUV and the back window come down about a half of inch. I introduced myself and asked if I had miss-understood him in any way on the phone. He replied I had not. I asked what the LEOs problem was and he did not reply. I returned to the LEO and told her I couldn't stop her from giving us tickets and taking our vehicles but as confirmed by the expert this wasn't EVEN BLM land let alone wilderness and pointed to my gps. A short time later the greenie was with the BLM Manager was coming from a closed area looking for the only fencing crew IMHO to show it off to her. I have no longer any respect for the BLM.

If you think I'm negative so be it. This isn't about bad people being were they shouldn't be. That's the excuse and that's the history. I do expect the Dumont Duners to continue to get screwed. That's not an attack that's an opinion although somewhat different from yours. You attacked the wrong guy. Apology accepted. When I'm in a better place I might actually have a conversation with you but thus far I haven't. We are in fact from the same ocean but miles apart with our methods. I don't hit the BLM with a pipe neither do I trust them with good reason. The BLM is in fact the power but only in their own mind. They are supposed to be managing the lands for the people. Problem is that we the people are going to continue to get what we always have gotten as long as we continue to do what we have always done which unfortunately wasn't enough. As I said before the BLM has taken ignoring public comment meetings to an art form. It's about time for we the people to tell them NOT ANOTHER INCH and not "well if we let them fence the T&T that doesn't affect me and maybe they will stop there." They won't. I've been there and I've done that and it didn't work.

Eli

Eli, your are correct about the BLM being in charge of the lands. However they are like a string puppet being controlled by the greenies and the Washington bureacrats. Our(off-roaders) problem is that we are not united never have been but hope we will. Sure you can get some to come out to a meeting and a clean up but to try to get them together to understand what it's going to take to keep what we have left is like hearding drunk cats!

I understand your frustration with BLM and I get frustrated with them also, however I have found that working with them on a close basis through FoDD and the Dumont sub-group and understanding the HUGE amount of bullshit they have to go through to get anything done is amazing. Wether the project is positive or negative in our eyes they are told by Washington and what laws the idiots who occupy the seats back there want done it is an amazinglly exsaparating issue. I sometimes wonder if they have to requsition TP and how much paper gets wasted just to get that job done.

We as offf- roaders and as American Citizens have to stop reyling on the goverment to"Take care" of things because as we can all see by the way things are currently in this country now they would screw up an iron ball. Again we need to unite but instead of trying to reinvent the wheel we need to look to other enities that are already working with our interests in mind. such as Blue ribbon Colition, The Utah based LANDFORALL campaign which has been pretty successful keeping the US Govt and greenies taking over huge amounts of land in Utah.

So in closing to all that I hope are reading this please if you can't '/won't get involved with your time and support local organizations at least send some money to the previouslly mentioned organizations. They will use it to better our interests and positions.

Are you going to the Tecopa meeting on Wed. Eli? If so I would like to meet you and get re-started on another foot if that's ok with you.

For the rest of you JUST SHOW UP WED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kobe10]

ynot- Terry,

I live in Los Angeles and can not make the meeting on Wednesday. I can and will offer my support as a volunteer to patrol the wash trail/road to make people aware of the closed area, if thats something that would help our cause. Most of our camp would be willing to assist as well. Please let me know how i can help.

Thanks!

[ynot]

ynot- Terry,

I live in Los Angeles and can not make the meeting on Wednesday. I can and will offer my support as a volunteer to patrol the wash trail/road to make people aware of the closed area, if thats something that would help our cause. Most of our camp would be willing to assist as well. Please let me know how i can help.

Thanks!

Thank You Kobe for the offer. We will see what we will need after this meeting shakes out.

[SAND~~SNAKE]

I am in who has room?

[sandawg]

I am in who has room?

I have room for 3, Mission Hills, by College and 95. If your close I can pick up people between 4:30-5 so we'll have time to get there before the meeting starts at 7. I figure about 1 hour 45 +- to get there! If any want to come to the house I've got lots of room to park. PM for address.

Edited September 12, 2011 by sandawg

[ynot]

I have room for 3, Mission Hills, by College and 95. If your close I can pick up people between 4:30-5 so we'll have time to get there before the meeting starts at 7. I figure about 1 hour 45 +- to get there! If any want to come to the house I've got lots of room to park. PM for address.

Should only be about 1 hour 15-30 minute run depending a little on traffic but I am leaving about 5 5:15. I would like to ride down but if I need to I can take the truck.

[sandawg]

Should only be about 1 hour 15-30 minute run depending a little on traffic but I am leaving about 5 5:15. I would like to ride down but if I need to I can take the truck.

Thought you and Ken were riding together. That's what I thought he said when I saw him earlier this week! You and Ken can ride with me. Sand Snake wants to ride over too and that will fill me up I was concerned about the east bound traffic at that time of the evening on the 215 and Blue Diamond Rd.

Edited September 12, 2011 by sandawg

[SAND~~SNAKE]

Thought you and Ken were riding together. That's what I thought he said when I saw him earlier this week! You and Ken can ride with me. Sand Snake wants to ride over too and that will fill me up I was concerned about the east bound traffic at that time of the evening on the 215 and Blue Diamond Rd.

Dont forget about BERT he posted something in the shout box. He will need plenty of room for his bean bag issue

[ynot]

Thought you and Ken were riding together. That's what I thought he said when I saw him earlier this week! You and Ken can ride with me. Sand Snake wants to ride over too and that will fill me up I was concerned about the east bound traffic at that time of the evening on the 215 and Blue Diamond Rd.

I am good with what ever, yeah Ken and I talked about driving down but have not workrd out the details.

[sandawg]

Dont forget about BERT he posted something in the shout box. He will need plenty of room for his bean bag issue

sanddunesaddict : (11 September 2011 - 01:22 PM) your truck full yet pat??Im rallying the troops and figureing out seating if we need more vehicles This looks like, to me, that he wasn't planning to ride with me. Am I not seeing it right?

The bed of the truck is still available, I think he will fit in there?

Edited September 12, 2011 by sandawg

[sandawg]

I am good with what ever, yeah Ken and I talked about driving down but have not workrd out the details.

Then you two ride down with me and Sand Snake. Then I'm full and Bert can work out some others to drive down too.

[Adam @ GTP Off Road]

If anyone is going from the Strip west I am looking for a ride share. I am in NLV. I can drive or you can drive. I won't be able to go solo. I can fit 3 + me in my ride.

[ynot]

If anyone is going from the Strip west I am looking for a ride share. I am in NLV. I can drive or you can drive. I won't be able to go solo. I can fit 3 + me in my ride.

If you want we could p/u up at Blue Diamond hwy and rainbow on our way out if you want. Looks like I will take Ken, Bert(depending on whatever this beanbag issue is) and you. That's 4 and if we need to squeeze in one more we can or just go with 4. Let me know what time you can be there Rap Rider?

[Adam @ GTP Off Road]

If you want we could p/u up at Blue Diamond hwy and rainbow on our way out if you want. Looks like I will take Ken, Bert(depending on whatever this beanbag issue is) and you. That's 4 and if we need to squeeze in one more we can or just go with 4. Let me know what time you can be there Rap Rider?

Yeah, sounds good I can do Blue Diamond and Rainbow. I can meet there whenever. I am trying to read through the messages to see for sure on a time. It looks like about maybe 5:30ish you will be through there?

[ynot]

Yeah, sounds good I can do Blue Diamond and Rainbow. I can meet there whenever. I am trying to read through the messages to see for sure on a time. It looks like about maybe 5:30ish you will be through there?

Yeah that would be about right. PM me your number and I will touch base with you by Tuesday mid day.

Terry

[dune_rat]

I could use room for 2 from Henderson, or I could drive too. I have room for 6, truck seats 8 if anyone wants to chip in for diesel?

[eli]

Eli, your are correct about the BLM being in charge of the lands. However they are like a string puppet being controlled by the greenies and the Washington bureacrats. Our(off-roaders) problem is that we are not united never have been but hope we will. Sure you can get some to come out to a meeting and a clean up but to try to get them together to understand what it's going to take to keep what we have left is like hearding drunk cats!

I understand your frustration with BLM and I get frustrated with them also, however I have found that working with them on a close basis through FoDD and the Dumont sub-group and understanding the HUGE amount of bullshit they have to go through to get anything done is amazing. Wether the project is positive or negative in our eyes they are told by Washington and what laws the idiots who occupy the seats back there want done it is an amazinglly exsaparating issue. I sometimes wonder if they have to requsition TP and how much paper gets wasted just to get that job done.

We as offf- roaders and as American Citizens have to stop reyling on the goverment to"Take care" of things because as we can all see by the way things are currently in this country now they would screw up an iron ball. Again we need to unite but instead of trying to reinvent the wheel we need to look to other enities that are already working with our interests in mind. such as Blue ribbon Colition, The Utah based LANDFORALL campaign which has been pretty successful keeping the US Govt and greenies taking over huge amounts of land in Utah.

So in closing to all that I hope are reading this please if you can't '/won't get involved with your time and support local organizations at least send some money to the previouslly mentioned organizations. They will use it to better our interests and positions.

Are you going to the Tecopa meeting on Wed. Eli? If so I would like to meet you and get re-started on another foot if that's ok with you.

For the rest of you JUST SHOW UP WED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sandawg]

I could use room for 2 from Henderson, or I could drive too. I have room for 6, truck seats 8 if anyone wants to chip in for diesel?

As I said in the shout box I have room for 2 from Henderson. I'm close to 95 and College and want to leave about 4:30 or quarter to 5. PM me for directions..

[dune_rat]

As I said in the shout box I have room for 2 from Henderson. I'm close to 95 and College and want to leave about 4:30 or quarter to 5. PM me for directions..

OK count my daughter and I in.

[sandawg]

OK count my daughter and I in.

OK Good!

[sandawg]

Just took this off the Barstow Web Site, Monday Sept 12th noon!

Additional information, please read whole thing!

BLM Schedules Public Meeting Seeking Input on

Amargosa River Management Plans

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) will hold a public scoping meeting in Tecopa, Calif., Wednesday, Sept. 14, 7-8 p.m., to garner comments for developing a management plan for the Amargosa River area.

BLM's Barstow Field Office is initiating a joint management plan for the Amargosa Wild & Scenic River (WSR) and Amargosa River Area of Critical Environmental Concern (ACEC). The WSR and ACEC are located in northeastern San Bernardino and southeastern Inyo Counties, Calif., near the communities of Tecopa and Death Valley Junction. The plans will guide management decisions and actions affecting the river and surrounding areas. The BLM is inviting public input to help identify resource conditions and management issues to be addressed in the joint plan.

BLM anticipates that the planning process will take approximately one and a half years to complete; while input throughout the planning process is welcome, comments received during the initial scoping period – Sept. 1-30, 2011, will prove more beneficial to the planning process. Comments may be submitted in writing to Chris Otahal, BLM Barstow Field Office, 2601 Barstow Road, Barstow, CA 92311; however, e-mails to amargosa@blm.gov are preferred. A short presentation regarding the planning process will be presented at the scoping meeting and " written comments will be solicited, but oral comments will not be taken".

The public scoping meeting will take place at:

Tecopa Community Center

400 Tecopa Hot Springs Road

Tecopa, CA 92389

The joint plan will consist of 1) a Comprehensive River Management Plan (CRMP) for the Amargosa WSR and 2) an Implementation Plan for the Amargosa River ACEC. Wild & Scenic Rivers are designated by Congress to protect their free-flowing condition, water quality, and "outstandingly remarkable values." The Amargosa WSR, designated in 2009, possesses "outstandingly remarkable scenic, geologic, recreational, fish, wildlife, cultural, and historic values." The BLM is responsible for preparing a CRMP to protect and enhance the values of the Amargosa WSR.

ACECs contain historic, cultural, or scenic values; fish or wildlife resources; or natural systems or processes of substantial significance and value. The Amargosa River ACEC was established in 2002 to protect the important resources of the Amargosa River area. The implementation plan will define management goals for the ACEC and outline a long-term action plan to strategically implement those goals.

Before including your address, phone number, e-mail address, or other personal identifying information in your comment, you should be aware that your entire comment – including your personal identifying information – may be made publicly available at any time. While you can ask us in your comment to withhold your personal identifying information from public review, we cannot guarantee that we will be able to do so.

No problem, we need to be heard and included!

Edited September 12, 2011 by sandawg

[SAND~~SNAKE]

Then you two ride down with me and Sand Snake. Then I'm full and Bert can work out some others to drive down too.

Pat I live right down the street from you, However I cant be ready till 5:30, I guess I can zip down in my tracker I am sure I could make it in a hour to tacopa.

[dunefreak]

Thanks for the info, Pat.

Since I cannot make it on Wed, I have submitted an email with my comments. I think everyone should do the same, whether they can make it or not.