barefoot bob Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 First off, it goes without saying this is an absolute tradgedy and it hurts across the duning community even though most of us didn't know the folks that lost their lives in this incident. Most of us in my camp physically saw the wreckage at the site and I will say it put a tremendous damper on the rest of our entire groups' weekend. NOBODY wishes that on anyone, it's just aweful. I'm a little disturbed at some of the reaction on the board toward people asking legitimate questions. I hope it's just because some of you knew the people that passed and are still emotionally leveled by all of this, that is understandable. I don't think anyone is out to get anyone in regard to the incident, the driver made a terrible mistake and payed a horrendous consequence for it. What's done is done. Now, why not take the opportunity to make something good come out of an otherwise tragic situation and learn any and all lessons we can from this aweful event. IMO, any fatal accident at any dunes should be fully investigated and the findings disclosed to the public. The ultimate in my mind would be an impartial investigative /review body comprised of law enforcement, chassis builders, and perhaps some other members of the duning community such as someone on the TRT etc. This is just one guys opinion but in my mind if you personally know the builder of any car involved in a fatal incident then you are inherently disqualified from looking at the event in an unbiased and objective manner. It is also my opinion that holding back the maker (either the company or an individual) of any vehicle involved in a fatal event is doing a disservice to anyone running that chassis or anyone actively involved in deciding what chassis to buy. If we can get decent unbiased facts after a fatal incident people should have the right to access that information in order to make an educated choice. Yes, none of the above information will bring back the folks that lost their lives last weekend BUT I we can be guaranteed one thing for sure, holding back information from other duners will have absolutely zero chance of perhaps preventing deaths in the future. Again, it's NOT about pointing fingers at whomever built this car, it's about potentially improving car design to help TRY to prevent deaths in the future. Once again, everyone I know that dunes are so sickened by this terrible incident it's unreal. Godspeed to the folks that passed and we have their families in our prayers. amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorvairJon Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Dang Rich, I think that's what I said. or meant to say anyway. Glad to see another firts time poster come to the board for the same reason I did with the same thoughts I have. PM me before you post next time maybe I won't have to write so much. Save people from reading the same thing twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich807 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Dang Rich, I think that's what I said. or meant to say anyway. Glad to see another firts time poster come to the board for the same reason I did with the same thoughts I have. PM me before you post next time maybe I won't have to write so much. Save people from reading the same thing twice. Yes I agree and this horrible incident is what also brought me over to the site as well. Kudos to DDR.com for having a lot of info flowing. I am very concerned about my family and friends' safety and want to follow this story out as far as possible. Hopefully that is all the way to some kind of official report from the LEO community. If not that at least we can hope more info comes out from within our ranks. Deaths happen a lot more down at Glamis, so much so I think a lot of folks down there are numb to it. Deaths are much more of a rare event at Dumont and when one or more happens there it really shakes the community hard. Dune safe brother, Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino king Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 yopu know i dont even care what yall think about the rail and how it was made that dosnt even make a difference. and for your information a very close friend of ours built that buggy/ and in no way do we blame him for anything..... actually im suprised it was only damaged that much.... still it could of been worse!!! im sorry if i sound a little hatefull but it irritates me how people are sometime ecpesially when they dont know exactly how everything happened....... i gree with you 100 percent know lets stop talking and start giving!!!!!this will be my last comment!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich807 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Some official tidbits for those inclined to follow the hard facts that come out in this case (item #7): http://www.co.san-bernardino.ca.us/coroner/PressRelease.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlvredneck Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 hey 'yall i'm new here but i was there when this happened and work for a company here in las vegas that as it so happens we build sandrails so it's really a hit at home to see things like this happen. i've also thought about the repercutions towards builders because we have people that were oval track racers and duners as builders so we have an idea into safty as i think most builders do so when the customer takes delivery the builder is relieved of any liability. i know from many a personnal experiance that the dunes are extremely unpredictable and hard to read between the hours of about 11:00 to 1:00 and i think this is what contributed mostly to what happened. so we all need to keep this in the back of our minds when we head out into the dunes because as bad as it sounds it could happen to any of us at any time :shocked2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunerider970 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 We are so sorry about the loss of this family and worry each time we go to the dunes. It has gotten so crowded over the last 10 years that we have resigned ourselves to wearing helmets anytime, any of us get into a buggy. Don't get us wrong, who doesn't like wind blowing throw their hair and in the face, but buggys with so much power and speed now can cause some serious injuries to its passengers. Our family has made helmets mandatory equipment in our buggy and any other buggy we decide to ride in. This has become the agreement among our group that we will all wear helmets. Please don't get me wrong and think that I am saying this would have saved these gentlemen, but some of the others it just might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlvredneck Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 helmets indeed should be a mandatory thing i mean any other sport requires them so why not sand cars?? but in my own opinion which i know is 2 cents, from what i saw of the car the biggest thing i saw with the car that might have helped was it looked like the bars sank into the sand on impact which in turn drove there heads and possibly upper bodies also into the sand resulting in them expiring. i think being involved with building sandrails a sheet metal roof which would have covered more area i think would have prevented the roof bars from penetrating into the sand?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleous Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 amen Well guys Its me again. After a miserable weekend for me (nothing but sh*t a$$ luck on my new rail) I have to say that it could have been worse. After seeing that crash with those 2 poor unlucky souls all I can think about is SAFETY. I am truly sorry for what happenened to my fellow duners and all love goes out to the families . After close inspections of that rail I would like to personally question the fabricator of that frame, Every body is mourning right now, but lets state the facts, that rail was not going as fast as every body i s saying, no way because I was there maybe 25ft jump at most. I have personally taken that jump as fast as speed would allow and the most air I ever got was 25ft. I have been in 3 crashes, Includining a 125 ft heads over heal jump with 3 people in my car and walked away with a broken lip. My personel opinion might not make a difference to anybody, but after the ownining 4 rails and 4 crashes (yeagh,yeagh,yeagh, that was in my younger days) there is now way that rail should have folded like that. Everybody is saying that the rail was built stout, Well how many of you guys that are claiming that have had any experience with rails , or ever owned one????? I say let the builder come on this board and explain to me and every body else it was designened an engineered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino king Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) [quo Edited November 1, 2006 by rhino king Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino king Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Well guys Its me again. After a miserable weekend for me (nothing but sh*t a$$ luck on my new rail) I have to say that it could have been worse. After seeing that crash with those 2 poor unlucky souls all I can think about is SAFETY. I am truly sorry for what happenened to my fellow duners and all love goes out to the families . After close inspections of that rail I would like to personally question the fabricator of that frame, Every body is mourning right now, but lets state the facts, that rail was not going as fast as every body i s saying, no way because I was there maybe 25ft jump at most. I have personally taken that jump as fast as speed would allow and the most air I ever got was 25ft. I have been in 3 crashes, Includining a 125 ft heads over heal jump with 3 people in my car and walked away with a broken lip. My personel opinion might not make a difference to anybody, but after the ownining 4 rails and 4 crashes (yeagh,yeagh,yeagh, that was in my younger days) there is now way that rail should have folded like that. Everybody is saying that the rail was built stout, Well how many of you guys that are claiming that have had any experience with rails , or ever owned one????? I say let the builder come on this board and explain to me and every body else it was designened an engineered. :shocked2: :fro: you have taking that jump??? thats not a jump!!!!!!!!!!look at that picture,,i thought i was not going to say any more but you guyz are blowing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleous Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 :shocked2: :fro: you have taking that jump??? thats not a jump!!!!!!!!!!look at that picture,,i thought i was not going to say any more but you guyz are blowing [ RHINO QUEEN, that jump was biggg, but thats what they build roll cages for. That cage should not have brooken at every weld. Why do you think they are doing an investigation on it right now????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino king Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 im not going to make this personal by calling names like???? rhino queen,, but i think you opinion is yours and mine is mine!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgs08 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Well I think everyone has the best of intentions here. First, I did know Harry. Not very well but i've hung out with him on occassion. I'm close to his Niece and her husband. (He was truely a great guy and will be missed!) The family is dealing with some terribly bad times right now and to have anyone start picking on the equipment or the driver would of course set them off, as it would any of us if this was on our plate right now! I can tell you this. I know that Harry was a VERY experience driver in the sand and was off to Dumont or Glamis on plenty of occasions, he was not a rookie by any means. I can only speculate that he got turned around and didn't realize what was next, sun in the eyes, malfunction with the buggy, we will just never know. I know the car was sound. Chromoly, nice weld job, basically a nice SAND CAR. I have raced off-road and have spent countless hours looking at all types of cars/buggies. I own a 4-seat desert car, and of course those of us that know the difference between a sand car and a desert car, know that it can be alot! Thicker walled tubing, gussets, extra bracing, etc. etc. etc. (made to hit things hard, not like sand is supposed to be "soft") This is unfortunately a price that is paid for light sand cars. That's one of the reasons you will see me running around in the big ole heavy buggy that is slower than everyone else, but having a blast! I think we can all see from the pics provided, that drop wasn't made for any vehicle. An educated guess would tell me that any of our tuff desert cars/buggies would have done the same thing. Maybe crinkle differently, but crinkle it would! I would say the biggest lesson to be learned hear is that we are all proned to get in a position that could take our lives, no matter how good the talent or equipment is. Love your family and friends and appreicate what we have because an accident could take it all away. We in the offroad world tend to lean a bit towards the out of control (slideways) side of things. We take our chances. I'm sure most of you can remember the old days when the buggies running these mountains had two bars going up and over the head, a vw powered engine, and bilstien shocks off the old pickup. And while the new big fancy cars out there are alot tougher, you can break them. Know your car, know the cars limits, know your talents, know your fears. Now get out there and tear up those Dunes! By the way, i'm new here. Actually came to the site looking for some answers to what happened this weekend. You all seem to be a great bunch, look forward to meeting you out at Dumont. I have really appreciated the comments and photo posts, I would have hated to have never seen the pics provided. If i do come across any info about the chassis (or lack of chassis), malfunction, or any pertent info. that will help keep us all safe, i will be sure to pass the info along. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino king Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 very well said,,,dont blame anyone or any weld,,,lets go on !!!!! and stop this and remember what could happen to any of us,rail ,quad,bike or rhino......out rk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleous Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Well I think everyone has the best of intentions here. First, I did know Harry. Not very well but i've hung out with him on occassion. I'm close to his Niece and her husband. (He was truely a great guy and will be missed!) The family is dealing with some terribly bad times right now and to have anyone start picking on the equipment or the driver would of course set them off, as it would any of us if this was on our plate right now! I can tell you this. I know that Harry was a VERY experience driver in the sand and was off to Dumont or Glamis on plenty of occasions, he was not a rookie by any means. I can only speculate that he got turned around and didn't realize what was next, sun in the eyes, malfunction with the buggy, we will just never know. I know the car was sound. Chromoly, nice weld job, basically a nice SAND CAR. I have raced off-road and have spent countless hours looking at all types of cars/buggies. I own a 4-seat desert car, and of course those of us that know the difference between a sand car and a desert car, know that it can be alot! Thicker walled tubing, gussets, extra bracing, etc. etc. etc. (made to hit things hard, not like sand is supposed to be "soft") This is unfortunately a price that is paid for light sand cars. That's one of the reasons you will see me running around in the big ole heavy buggy that is slower than everyone else, but having a blast! I think we can all see from the pics provided, that drop wasn't made for any vehicle. An educated guess would tell me that any of our tuff desert cars/buggies would have done the same thing. Maybe crinkle differently, but crinkle it would! I would say the biggest lesson to be learned hear is that we are all proned to get in a position that could take our lives, no matter how good the talent or equipment is. Love your family and friends and appreicate what we have because an accident could take it all away. We in the offroad world tend to lean a bit towards the out of control (slideways) side of things. We take our chances. I'm sure most of you can remember the old days when the buggies running these mountains had two bars going up and over the head, a vw powered engine, and bilstien shocks off the old pickup. And while the new big fancy cars out there are alot tougher, you can break them. Know your car, know the cars limits, know your talents, know your fears. Now get out there and tear up those Dunes! By the way, i'm new here. Actually came to the site looking for some answers to what happened this weekend. You all seem to be a great bunch, look forward to meeting you out at Dumont. I have really appreciated the comments and photo posts, I would have hated to have never seen the pics provided. If i do come across any info about the chassis (or lack of chassis), malfunction, or any pertent info. that will help keep us all safe, i will be sure to pass the info along. Jeff I do apreciate your input on this and I do welcome you to the board, a newbie just like me. Again I wish all my love and prayers to the famililies , under no circumstences would I ever wish any harm or injuries to my fellow duners. After many years of duning with my buddies and family, I am sickened by all these accidents. Every other week you read about these fatalities of people getting hurt in these crashes. Majority of these sand rail accidents are home made garage jobs. These so called garage jockeys have absolutely no Idea what it takes to engineer/build/design a rail. Why would any body buy a no name toy and take it out to a Dangerous place like Dumont. How many garage built quads/dirtbikes does anybody see out at DUMONT....... NONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleous Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Jeff I do apreciate your input on this and I do welcome you to the board, a newbie just like me. Again I wish all my love and prayers to the famililies , under no circumstences would I ever wish any harm or injuries to my fellow duners. After many years of duning with my buddies and family, I am sickened by all these accidents. Every other week you read about these fatalities of people getting hurt in these crashes. Majority of these sand rail accidents are home made garage jobs. These so called garage jockeys have absolutely no Idea what it takes to engineer/build/design a rail. Why would any body buy a no name toy and take it out to a Dangerous place like Dumont. How many garage built quads/dirtbikes does anybody see out at DUMONT....... NONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bound4Dirt Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 very well said,,,dont blame anyone or any weld,,,lets go on !!!!! and stop this and remember what could happen to any of us,rail ,quad,bike or rhino......out rk I don't think anyone is blaming the welds or anything per say more who did it so they don't buy from them. Maybe I am wrong. But after reading all the posts the same question is asked or stated "who did it?" Its not a bad question IMHO. We all have families. A guesstimate is a engineer didn't make the frame thus there could be an error. If someone is reading these posts and building a buggy I beat thats on their mind to make sure their's is built good. My $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino king Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I don't think anyone is blaming the welds or anything per say more who did it so they don't buy from them. Maybe I am wrong. But after reading all the posts the same question is asked or stated "who did it?" Its not a bad question IMHO. We all have families. A guesstimate is a engineer didn't make the frame thus there could be an error. If someone is reading these posts and building a buggy I beat thats on their mind to make sure their's is built good. My $.02 totally right,,no problem here about that!!I guess we all want an answer ????? just to know why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunefreak Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 I think it was stated before....a friend of the family built the car along with Harry doing some things to help finish it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalalien Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) The cage looks like it's in good shape for what that car did. NONE of the sand rail cages are designed to handle a 30/40 ft drop upside down. Look at the picture at the top of this forum, the dumont dune riders logo. If you drop that rail upside from 30ft onto sand the cage would crush as least as much. I think some of you guys like to believe you are safer than you really are. Those cages are designed for roll overs. Not design for another car landing on top of you, or jumping and landing on top of the cage. Anything like that and it will fold like tissue paper. You go upside down in mid air, nothing is going to save you once you are past a certain height. Edited November 1, 2006 by metalalien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckharrisjr Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Jeff I do apreciate your input on this and I do welcome you to the board, a newbie just like me. Again I wish all my love and prayers to the famililies , under no circumstences would I ever wish any harm or injuries to my fellow duners. After many years of duning with my buddies and family, I am sickened by all these accidents. Every other week you read about these fatalities of people getting hurt in these crashes. Majority of these sand rail accidents are home made garage jobs. These so called garage jockeys have absolutely no Idea what it takes to engineer/build/design a rail. Why would any body buy a no name toy and take it out to a Dangerous place like Dumont. How many garage built quads/dirtbikes does anybody see out at DUMONT....... NONE The reason people buy no name rails and take them to dumont or even build them themselves is due to the outrageous prices on big name rails...Everyone cant afford the name...The reason you dont see any garage built quads is because you can buy a brand new one for 6 grand... You need to ask yourself the same question about regular cars. People die day in and day out because they were hit in the door in their saturn, if the people were in a suv or a high end car they may have lived, again everyone cant afford the name... In my opinion, the distance they flew, and landed upside down, it doesnt matter what they were in, but unfortunately we will never know.. My heart goes out to the family and friends of the loved ones, I hope you heal fast and stay strong, Its just to easy to say, and most of us cant comprehend what you are actually going through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandBox_Kid Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 The cage looks like it's in good shape for what that car did. NONE of the sand rail cages are designed to handle a 30/40 ft drop upside down. Look at the picture at the top of this forum, the dumont dune riders logo. If you drop that rail upside from 30ft onto sand the cage would crush as least as much. I think some of you guys like to believe you are safer than you really are. Those cages are designed for roll overs. Not design for another car landing on top of you, or jumping and landing on top of the cage. Anything like that and it will fold like tissue paper. You go upside down in mid air, nothing is going to save you once you are past a certain height. Good point. If it was then it would be like NASCAR. 2" seamless and braced like crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefoot bob Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 i dunno about saying that all the "big names" are the only safe rails . as a matter of fact there are a few of the "big names" i wouldnt put a v8 into much less trust my life in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunefreak Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 The cage looks like it's in good shape for what that car did. NONE of the sand rail cages are designed to handle a 30/40 ft drop upside down. Look at the picture at the top of this forum, the dumont dune riders logo. If you drop that rail upside from 30ft onto sand the cage would crush as least as much. I think some of you guys like to believe you are safer than you really are. Those cages are designed for roll overs. Not design for another car landing on top of you, or jumping and landing on top of the cage. Anything like that and it will fold like tissue paper. You go upside down in mid air, nothing is going to save you once you are past a certain height. I was waiting for someone to pick on my car's integrity. One thing I don't think most understand is how hard the car hit on it's roof. It not only landed on it's roof, but it had alot of momentum and force from the rear of the car that caused even more force on impact along with the angle of the hill was almost like crashing head on into a wall. I think this thread has blown up into an arguement that can never be agreed on...how strong a sandrail's cage should be. I think most cars out there can survive rollovers. There may be some that can survive the crash that Harry and Phil were in, but not many. If a quad or bike would have went of that same hill the way that sandrail did, I bet the outcome would have been the same, deadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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