sandrail crash

[SandBox_Kid]

[chuckharrisjr]

i dunno about saying that all the "big names" are the only safe rails . as a matter of fact there are a few of the "big names" i wouldnt put a v8 into much less trust my life in.

I agree 100% there are some high end rails that are not safe whatsoever..... Just speaking in general.... Theres also rails built outa garages that dont get any safer....

[pjcnlv]

Would Helmets have mitigated the fatal injuries?

[lvnalolife]

I agree with Pete that this is an argument that no one will ever agree on. It is like all those ford vs chevy arguments. Everyone has an opinion and it wont always be the same as everyone else's. Lets just pray that the families deal with the loss of their loved one's and that we all know it can happen to anyone. So lets all take a minute to ourselves and pray that the family can stay strong in this time of loss. Lets let them mourn and let them worry about how their loved ones passed. It urks me to see how everyone wants to get into an argument on everything from driver skill to builder choice. LOOK, it was a horrible thing that happened, it could happen to anyone. Lets all keep this in the back of our heads and be careful out there!

The way the finger pointing and arguing is happening on this forum lately is exactly what ruined it for me on another well known Dune forum.

Enough from me. My prayers go out to the families of Harry and Phil.

Edited November 1, 2006 by lvnalolife

[Resident^Blonde]

I agree with Pete that this is an argument that no one will ever agree on. It is like all those ford vs chevy arguments. Everyone has an opinion and it wont always be the same as everyone else's. Lets just pray that the families deal with the loss of their loved one's and that we all know it can happen to anyone. So lets all take a minute to ourselves and pray that the family can stay strong in this time of loss. Lets let them mourn and let them worry about how their loved ones passed. It urks me to see how everyone wants to get into an argument on everything from driver skill to builder choice. LOOK, it was a horrible thing that happened, it could happen to anyone. Lets all keep this in the back of our heads and be careful out there!

The way the finger pointing and arguing is happening on this forum lately is exactly what ruined it for me on another well known Dune forum.

Enough from me. My prayers go out to the families of Harry and Phil.

Im with you guys as well. Its horrible that the accident happend. I feel for the families. I really do. I hope that they can deal in peace and not be reminded of all of the what if's. They're in our prayers as well

[marbleous]

Would Helmets have mitigated the fatal injuries?

Hey guys all Im saying is did anybody see that rail in person????? I did and never so many broken welds ,

every weld on that cage looked like bubblegum no penetration at all. Im sorry to bring this up and again I do apoligize to every body on this board but that is just my proffeional opinion. I would not want this to happen to my worst enemy and all Im trying to do is prevent this from happening again. Just inspect it all

before going out and playing, and if you dont know call on a proffesional, dont experiment with your LIFE.

[rich807]

Seems like there's 2 camps, those that think no cage would hold that, and those that think a roll cage should be designed to withstand crashes appropriate to the performance of car it's attached to. I fall in the latter camp but I am not badmouthing or criticzing those that think no cage would’ve held up. You folks have a right to that opinion, and you can choose to ride in/buy any design you are comfortable with.

As an aside from the main purpose of this post, I have an issue with is some of you guys that are protecting personal friends in this particular accident i.e. whomever the mystery builder is. If this guy was qualified in all the fields he needed to be qualified in then I see no reason why it’s such a big secret. It’s already going around that the car was built in Bullhead so I’m sure more will follow. I said it before but if you know the builder and or the owner you are biased in this discussion, that sounds harsh but it is the fact.

My post from this point forward is directed toward those people that are not satisfied by what they see and would not like a cage to collapse on them in a similar event. I would ask that those of you who think the cage performed acceptably respect those of us that differ from your opinion. Some of us want to free flow of information in order to learn from this tragedy.

As a forward (from this point) I will say that I manage a machine shop. I’ve been showing the photos to various professionals within my complex. Some of my employees have been involved in various forms of racing for decades and have done race vehicle fabrication. They are not definitive experts, as they don’t specialize in sand rails however, they are professionals that machine and fabricate for a living. I talked to my mechanical engineer (he has a college degree in mechanical engineering & 40 years hands-on experience in the industry) as well as 2 of my machinists/fabricators today about this event. Long story short is they all independently told me that cage was an utter failure (for a multitude of reasons). For a significant number of us unrelated to the victims or the “ builder” this is obvious. I just wanted some professional opinion one way or another.

Some lessons I’m taking away from this event:

Modern sandrail building should be left to professionals, preferably Degreed Engineers, metallurgists, and the like. If you build one in your garage then you’re betting your life on you knowing all you need to know about all the critical disciplines involved with the structural safety and integrity of that car. That’s ok if that’s what you want but also, you’re betting passengers’ lives on your “expertise”. If you allow one of your buds build you one in their garage or even if they own a “welding shop” or whatever, you are betting your life and any passengers’ life on their technical know-how (or lack thereof). Think about it.

I also had my guys look at various brands of "retailed" cars and the car on the DDR.com banner. The bottom line I got back from them on the banner car was they thought the cage design was horribly inadequate in a variety of ways. They also saw serious flaws in many of the LT chassis being marketed today. Again, if you're ok with a roll cage that will only protect you if you turtle over at 5-10mph then ok, that's your choice. My problem is I guarantee you 99% of the people that buy these cars think the cage has been engineered to protect in most crash events. Unfortunately, that is not true for a number of chassis on the market now.

Any form of sanctioned auto racing has reviewed, verified, and proven safety standards. From local NHRA, local NASCAR, local IMCA etc to the big leagues where each team and the sanctioning bodies themselves have armies of engineers and medical staff constantly strive to make sure the level of safety surpasses the performance of the cars. Sand rails have no sanctioning body standards to meet. Its buyer bewares. Educate yourself on what level of safety construction you are satisfied with and what makers meet and more importantly don’t meet your build standards. Do not ride in other folks’ cars that are not built to your level of satisfaction, it could mean your life.

[GirlWithHorns]

i agree

[Spider]

Im with you guys as well. Its horrible that the accident happend. I feel for the families. I really do. I hope that they can deal in peace and not be reminded of all of the what if's. They're in our prayers as well

let me ask this question, but beforehand, i would like to send my thoughts out to their families and friends....were they wearing helmets? if not, i would suggest, as I do personally, to wear helmets in buggies...the chassis is made of metal and your head is made of bone with your brain being a half an inch from that bone...i dont understand why people dont wear helmets...people think it is cool to not wear one but dont realize if that roll bar came down on your head, you have no chance at surviving...now im not sure if they were wearing helmets, but for a future suggestion, we need to make helmets MANDATORY in sandrails and rhinos, etc...i see people riding their kids around in teh back of rhinos with no helmets on...do people think they are invincible...if that roll bar hits your head, you are done...i dont know how to start making helmet laws mandatory in buggies, but I have a made it a mandatory law for myself...i think this would help the injuries and fatalities in a positive way...just my 2c

[Bound4Dirt]

Seems like there's 2 camps, those that think no cage would hold that, and those that think a roll cage should be designed to withstand crashes appropriate to the performance of car it's attached to. I fall in the latter camp but I am not badmouthing or criticzing those that think no cage would’ve held up. You folks have a right to that opinion, and you can choose to ride in/buy any design you are comfortable with.

As an aside from the main purpose of this post, I have an issue with is some of you guys that are protecting personal friends in this particular accident i.e. whomever the mystery builder is. If this guy was qualified in all the fields he needed to be qualified in then I see no reason why it’s such a big secret. It’s already going around that the car was built in Bullhead so I’m sure more will follow. I said it before but if you know the builder and or the owner you are biased in this discussion, that sounds harsh but it is the fact.

My post from this point forward is directed toward those people that are not satisfied by what they see and would not like a cage to collapse on them in a similar event. I would ask that those of you who think the cage performed acceptably respect those of us that differ from your opinion. Some of us want to free flow of information in order to learn from this tragedy.

As a forward (from this point) I will say that I manage a machine shop. I’ve been showing the photos to various professionals within my complex. Some of my employees have been involved in various forms of racing for decades and have done race vehicle fabrication. They are not definitive experts, as they don’t specialize in sand rails however, they are professionals that machine and fabricate for a living. I talked to my mechanical engineer (he has a college degree in mechanical engineering & 40 years hands-on experience in the industry) as well as 2 of my machinists/fabricators today about this event. Long story short is they all independently told me that cage was an utter failure (for a multitude of reasons). For a significant number of us unrelated to the victims or the “ builder” this is obvious. I just wanted some professional opinion one way or another.

Some lessons I’m taking away from this event:

Modern sandrail building should be left to professionals, preferably Degreed Engineers, metallurgists, and the like. If you build one in your garage then you’re betting your life on you knowing all you need to know about all the critical disciplines involved with the structural safety and integrity of that car. That’s ok if that’s what you want but also, you’re betting passengers’ lives on your “expertise”. If you allow one of your buds build you one in their garage or even if they own a “welding shop” or whatever, you are betting your life and any passengers’ life on their technical know-how (or lack thereof). Think about it.

I also had my guys look at various brands of "retailed" cars and the car on the DDR.com banner. The bottom line I got back from them on the banner car was they thought the cage design was horribly inadequate in a variety of ways. They also saw serious flaws in many of the LT chassis being marketed today. Again, if you're ok with a roll cage that will only protect you if you turtle over at 5-10mph then ok, that's your choice. My problem is I guarantee you 99% of the people that buy these cars think the cage has been engineered to protect in most crash events. Unfortunately, that is not true for a number of chassis on the market now.

Any form of sanctioned auto racing has reviewed, verified, and proven safety standards. From local NHRA, local NASCAR, local IMCA etc to the big leagues where each team and the sanctioning bodies themselves have armies of engineers and medical staff constantly strive to make sure the level of safety surpasses the performance of the cars. Sand rails have no sanctioning body standards to meet. Its buyer bewares. Educate yourself on what level of safety construction you are satisfied with and what makers meet and more importantly don’t meet your build standards. Do not ride in other folks’ cars that are not built to your level of satisfaction, it could mean your life.

I could not have said it better.

[marbleous]

RICH 807 I couldnt have said it better, I thank you very much for exprt opinion, And last final I would like to request does anybody have a picture of the car before the crash?????????

FRANK

[OGP]

let me ask this question, but beforehand, i would like to send my thoughts out to their families and friends....were they wearing helmets? if not, i would suggest, as I do personally, to wear helmets in buggies...the chassis is made of metal and your head is made of bone with your brain being a half an inch from that bone...i dont understand why people dont wear helmets...people think it is cool to not wear one but dont realize if that roll bar came down on your head, you have no chance at surviving...now im not sure if they were wearing helmets, but for a future suggestion, we need to make helmets MANDATORY in sandrails and rhinos, etc...i see people riding their kids around in teh back of rhinos with no helmets on...do people think they are invincible...if that roll bar hits your head, you are done...i dont know how to start making helmet laws mandatory in buggies, but I have a made it a mandatory law for myself...i think this would help the injuries and fatalities in a positive way...just my 2c

MANDATORY HELMET LAWS IN A BUGGY???? ARE YOU FUGGING KIDDING ME??? LET ME CHOOSE IF I WANT TO WEAR A HELMET OR NOT I DONT NEED A LAW SAYING WHAT I SHOULD AND SHOULDNT DO. WE NEED A LAW SAYING HOW MUCH FRIGGIN SALT WE CAN PUT ON OUR FOOD. IT IS DANGEROUS YOU KNOW

Edited November 2, 2006 by ORIGINALPIMP

[OGP]

First let me say that I KNOW this I my first post on this site. But what brought me here was this incident that happened over the weekend. Like ANY human I am very sorry to hear what happened. My thoughts go out to the family and friends of the people who lost their lives over the weekend. It has been a long time since I too have lot a fiend in the dunes and I still think of them each time I first see the dunes off in the distance. It’s HARD to deal with.

Gary I gotta ask you this question. I KNOW you say that the builder of this vehicle has NOTHING to do with the death of these people. I do not know you. I do not know the amount of expertise you have in the subject of chassis construction. You say that it doesn’t make a difference. I don’t want to take that chance. I do not want my fellow dune friends and family to take that chance. If you know that there is another car out there from this builder then I would say it is your duty as a duner to inform us who this builder is. IF there was a non biased governmental crash investigation team that would pick apart this incident with a fine tooth comb and come to conclusion that this chassis in fact held up PERFECTLY and did what it should have done. I would wait for their conclusion. But since there is no investigation team and all we have to go on is hearsay and our own knowledge of fabrication and the shape the car was in after the incident then it is the responsibility of the people in the know to share information freely, and without biased, to other duners so they (we) can make our own conclusions.

Maybe, MAYBE there is another car out there, like this one, made from the same material and the same specs as this one. IF the owner of that car knew that he has a car similar to this one and he can make changes should we (you) with hold information? And IF I were to be looking for a chassis in the future should I not be told the truth about what COULD go wrong with it in the case of a similar roll over? We COULD be talking about the livelihood of the builder and his family. I understand that companies don’t always get their product right the first time. Sometimes it takes MANY tries. Look at the Pinto & Chevy’s fuel tank issues. Those are two HUGE companies that had a flaw in vehicles that were already tested an released. It happens. The wrong thing for them to have done would have been to sit on the info.

Gary if you don’t want to post the builder here on the board that’s fine. But at least PM me with the info so I can make an educated decision the next time I buy a chassis. Others may or may not ask you for the same thing. But me, I want to know. Don’t worry I have my own site dedicated to low dollar rails and wouldn’t stake the reputation of my site by slandering the builder of the chassis. Who knows if I find out that his stuff really does stand up I can help him sell his stuff.

Sorry my first post on this site has to deal with such a horrible tragedy. But sometimes bad things bring good people together.

YOU STATE SIMILAR ROLLOVER!!!! THIS WAS NOT A ROLLOVER. THIS WAS A MAJOR ACCIDENT. WAKE UP!!!!!

HERES YOUR WARNING STICKER!!!! A CAR GOING 50 PLUS MILES AND HOUR LANDS UPSIDE DOWN AFTER FALLING OVER 100 FEET AND LANDING ON ITS ROOF MAY CAUSE INJURY OR DEATH. UH YEAH. ALL BUILDERS SHOULD HAVE THIS DISCLOSURE.

Edited November 2, 2006 by ORIGINALPIMP

[MAXDOUT]

I have to say, all of you are arguing over spilt milk. STOP!!!! What is done is done. Driver error??? Bad cage??? It could go on and on. Everyone should just learn from this. Some times truth hurts. We are all in a dangerous sport. BE CAREFULL!!! To all the people involved my wife and I wish you the best.

[GGZOBZ]

we were camped out towards the back in front of comp we were close to were the rangers were parked at night enjoying the show and seeing the rails and bikes going up and down when we saw one going up and saw the lights going up pretty fast and next thing you know we just saw clear the razor like if it was taking off but it looked like it was rotating backwards. all my buddys were like DAMN you see that thing go not knowing it would have such sad results. will let them know today so we can help in anyway.

Thanks.

Yes. It was in the daytime and someone is mistaken or FOS. Not a good time to play games

[Craniacs]

I appreciate all that really looked into it and analyzed it! good for you. Dont waiver on fully looking into it..

Also if you know where it was or how it happened or why someone would believe it was safe to drive-fast-in bad conditions or whatever then please point them out. This needs to be to keep everyone safe..hats off to the analyzing opinion seeking, asking questions always seeking individuals....thanks for my air bag, thanks for my antilock brakes...glad you dont listen to the spilt milk folks....

[MAXDOUT]

I appreciate all that really looked into it and analyzed it! good for you. Dont waiver on fully looking into it..

Also if you know where it was or how it happened or why someone would believe it was safe to drive-fast-in bad conditions or whatever then please point them out. This needs to be to keep everyone safe..hats off to the analyzing opinion seeking, asking questions always seeking individuals....thanks for my air bag, thanks for my antilock brakes...glad you dont listen to the spilt milk folks....

[BHCLOCAL]

First and formost I feel horible for both families involved and this in now way is ment in a hurtfull maner. Im sure this post will get trashed by the half that think it doesnt need to be said but I know the car builder, The car history,(and there are others out there)and everyone involved. The car was built at a shop in bullhead( fortunately the person who built this car is nolonger there.)The car was bought as a roller by Greg Willams. Harrys son, a very avid dune enthusiast.it was his dream to have a long travel rail. This car was all he talked about. Unfortunatly he wanted this so bad some of the problems were accepted and delt with once they got it home. The welds looked like birdshit in places with very little penitration and nice in others. It was his dimond in the rough. It was not chromoly like was stated in a previous post. (not that there is anything wrong with mild steel.) There was no r.d. on the build it was made on a very primitve jig and was made in a two seat and four seat version. ( I know of 2, 2 seats and 2, 4 seats)The steering had to be completely redesigned buy harry and his son.

alot had to be done to this car befor they took it out. Unfortunatly Greg never got to enjoy his buggy. He was killed in a tragic accident at work so it was Harrys mission to get this car done. Days leading up to this weekend they worked day and night to get the v6 put in.(it originaly had a pinto) so the extra power may have contributed. But in my opinion the complete cage failure is to blame. Pictures say a thousand words and those pics are screaming...... Im no expert but come on if welds break they are not properly made. Ya its not a desert car but that doesnt mean the cage should fold up and break apart. Nohting can change what has happend but if anyone else has one of these cars (they will know who built it)or any car that was home built get it checked out. I can see multiple areas that a simple guset or brace would have greatly strengthend this cage.

This sucks a$$ for this family and everyone who knows them. Again best wishes to them.

The only good thing to come from this is Harry is with his son now.

[rhino king]

Hey guys all Im saying is did anybody see that rail in person????? I did and never so many broken welds ,

every weld on that cage looked like bubblegum no penetration at all. Im sorry to bring this up and again I do apoligize to every body on this board but that is just my proffeional opinion. I would not want this to happen to my worst enemy and all Im trying to do is prevent this from happening again. Just inspect it all

before going out and playing, and if you dont know call on a proffesional, dont experiment with your LIFE.

Edited November 2, 2006 by rhino king

[nvdutch]

My prayers are with your family. Can you send pictures of where it happen to avoid another family maybe going through this?

Thanks.

Dear fellow duners,

The sandrail was built by Wet&Wild of Bullhead City AZ,Hwy 95.

I have seen their work before and no way in hell would i ride in one of their frames.

The 6 point roll cage angles are not even close to correct.

In my 12 year duning experience i have never seen a frame colapse like that,

it is just in sheer incompetance.

I have seen some crazy rolls, here is one of my experience's.

The same rail design as the sandrail I am selling went off the top of a razorback

at 80+MPH and 80 feet down the dune face and roll end over end 5 times.

The riders walked away without a scratch.

The frame did its job and all welds were still intacted and frame was still in general shape.

[marbleous]

Hey Rhino King sorrry about that last night. Well any way no matter what speed that rail was going at there is no reason why every weld should have come apart. Supposedely the builder that fabricated this rail is in hiding and has numerous other rails out there that need to be addressed. Somebody on this board knows who he is. For the safety of other fellow duners he should fess up on who he is and have a recall on all his rails that have this same design flaw....

[Spider]

MANDATORY HELMET LAWS IN A BUGGY???? ARE YOU FUGGING KIDDING ME??? LET ME CHOOSE IF I WANT TO WEAR A HELMET OR NOT I DONT NEED A LAW SAYING WHAT I SHOULD AND SHOULDNT DO. WE NEED A LAW SAYING HOW MUCH FRIGGIN SALT WE CAN PUT ON OUR FOOD. IT IS DANGEROUS YOU KNOW

Hey Original Pimp, you need to get off your high horse and wake up to reality...you got quite a hard head and that may help you in a wreck when that roll bar hits your head...but for the rest of us, we dont have a hard head like you...if that roll bar hits your head you are dead...thats the bottom line...if we shouldnt have to wear helmets in buggies, why do we have to wear them on four-wheelers...because we dont have a roll bar to protect us that wont protect your a$$ anyways from the metal that comes down crashing on your head...you need a mandatory helmet law if you are not going to use your head and think you are invincible and untouchable...dont be a smart a$$ because this is an issue that could cause the dunes to be closed...too many injuries in buggies because of their size, people not wearing helmets, and thinking the buggy is never going to crash because it is a long travel and i can jump the dunes at 100 without knowing whats on the other side.

So you dont need a law saying what i should and shouldnt do...so we dont need traffic lights, speed limits, i can go around and rob people, hold people hostage and so on and so forth...YOU NEED TO WAKE UP...there are laws telling you what to do for a reason....to save and protect your life...but you continue to think you are so cool and you are above the laws and you dont need laws telling you what to do...that is your choice, but for the others that want to be safe and stay alive, and have these dunes to ride, then we need to have helmet laws in buggies....until then, we run the risk of being shut down...so "original pimp" you are quite original, but not in a smart or good way

[nvdutch]

Dear fellow duners,

The sandrail was built by Wet&Wild of Bullhead City AZ,Hwy 95.

I have seen their work before and no way in hell would i ride in one of their frames.

The 6 point roll cage angles are not even close to correct.

In my 12 year duning experience i have never seen a frame colapse like that,

it is just in sheer incompetance.

I have seen some crazy rolls, here is one of my experience's.

The same rail design as the sandrail I am selling went off the top of a razorback

at 80+MPH and 80 feet down the dune face and roll end over end 5 times.

The riders walked away without a scratch.

The frame did its job and all welds were still intacted and frame was still in general shape

[sanddunesaddict]

Hey Original Pimp, you need to get off your high horse and wake up to reality...you got quite a hard head and that may help you in a wreck when that roll bar hits your head...but for the rest of us, we dont have a hard head like you...if that roll bar hits your head you are dead...thats the bottom line...if we shouldnt have to wear helmets in buggies, why do we have to wear them on four-wheelers...because we dont have a roll bar to protect us that wont protect your a$$ anyways from the metal that comes down crashing on your head...you need a mandatory helmet law if you are not going to use your head and think you are invincible and untouchable...dont be a smart a$$ because this is an issue that could cause the dunes to be closed...too many injuries in buggies because of their size, people not wearing helmets, and thinking the buggy is never going to crash because it is a long travel and i can jump the dunes at 100 without knowing whats on the other side.

So you dont need a law saying what i should and shouldnt do...so we dont need traffic lights, speed limits, i can go around and rob people, hold people hostage and so on and so forth...YOU NEED TO WAKE UP...there are laws telling you what to do for a reason....to save and protect your life...but you continue to think you are so cool and you are above the laws and you dont need laws telling you what to do...that is your choice, but for the others that want to be safe and stay alive, and have these dunes to ride, then we need to have helmet laws in buggies....until then, we run the risk of being shut down...so "original pimp" you are quite original, but not in a smart or good way

YOURE A DOUCHEBAG!!!

If I dont want to wear my seat belt its my choice

If I dont want to wear a helmet is my choice!

If I jump off a bridge its my choice!!

If I want to do whatever the hell I want to that is illegal is my f*cking choice.

Do you wear a helmet in your daily driver car...because you could have an ACCIDENT and get killed by your A or B billar hitting you in the head

P.S anyone of my friends will tell you I obey laws to much so dont go thinking I break laws all the time.

Edited November 2, 2006 by sanddunesaddict

[Spider]

YOURE A DOUCHEBAG!!!

If I dont want to wear my seat belt its my choice

If I dont want to wear a helmet is my choice!

If I jump off a bridge its my choice!!

If I want to do whatever the hell I want to that is illegal is my f*cking choice.

Do you wear a helmet in your daily driver car...because you could have an ACCIDENT and get killed by your A or B billar hitting you in the head

Hey sanddunesaddict...i wouldnt go there...you are right, it is your choice...to die...if you wanna die, go ahead what the hell do i care..one less idiot in the sand dunes...no i dont wear a helmet in my truck, but i also dont go up 600 foot sand dunes at 60-70 mph, my truck is safer than a dune buggy, and there are traffic rules to add to your safety during everyday driving...i dont know how long you been riding or thinking, but you need to start using your head too...im sure you are one of those people that think their sh*t doesnt stink, you are never going to get in an accident, and you drive by people's camps at 50 popping wheelies thinking you are cool and boosting your ego.

if you can do whatever you want, why is there a law to wear helmets on quads and dirtbikes? just bc a buggy has roll cage that is going to protect your dome every time...i dont think so...like i said, do what you want, but to protect other riders, yourself, and the dunes, we all need to wear helmets...it must be an ego thing to drive around in your buggy with the wind through your hair just like idiots that ride motorcycles in arizona and utah without helmets...its so cool to not wear a helmet and let the wind hit your face...that is until the pavement or roll bar crushes your skull