1320 Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 The unfortunate crash that killed two did spur this post. I ve made posts in the past though with little or even no comments. I wonder if safety is low on the list or if everyone thnks they are safe? I build cages, race cars for a living. 99% of all sand rails are unsafe in some way. I went halloween weekend with an old chenworth car. In my camp it was by far FAR the safest car. One was a virtually brand new long travel ls1 car too. My wife took a ride in the ls1 car (as have I in the past) and as I followed on my quad all I could think about was "what if" what if they have an incident. They dont need to be going fast or anything to have a small mistake cause a major incident. I wanted my wife out of that car. The car in the crash......has several build problems and design problems that caused the injuries. I dont know how far they fell (30 ft or so according to the story) but I think it should have been completely survivable essecially if they inpacted in sand. Just because it has some bars on top doesnt make it safe. That car was unsafe, or unfinished. No cage should deform like that even if dropped from 30 ft straight up. Its job is to keep its integrity. The belts absorb the inpact with the chassis external to the occupant compartment. The car in the pictures...........1$ in steal could have changed everything. Very very sad. Plan to go over, plan to go over and over and over. Just a note, the last time out the chenworth car I drove was tumbled 5 times, its been over numerous other times in the sand and in the desert. The 5 rolls it took at dumont last time out, didnt even break a bulb. I had to fix a light housing, and straighten a couple others, but it drove away just fine, with no chassis problems at all. If you own a rail and do not have experience or othyer knowledge regarding the design and planning of safety features in your car , get someone who does. Most cars I see have several common theme problems, like the car in the crash. Basically a good car with a few small things either done wrong or not done at all. Even if you take it easy, pan for the worst case , the drunk guy that stole his uncles v8 car and is about to hit you at 75 mph.......or land on top of you, or push you over on a hill for a 30 roll tumble to the bottom. Plan for that guy, cause he is out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino king Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 I agree with you but that was a far drop,,the safest cars on the market kill people, its the way you hit ,,its that way, just like dale e no one thought that crash was bad,,and that car is safe!!! but its the way he hit ,thats all it takes,,we will never know, but dont blame his cage or him ,his throttle could of stuck who knows...he built it to have fun,if you were on a quad or bike and hit that drop it would of been the same out come,I think its was one freak accident and no matter what rail you were in some one wasnt going to walk a way,,and i would rather roll than have an impact like that!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320 Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) I wouldnt expect to walk away from what was described but survive yes. That car had no gusseting, and virtually no bracing on the cage at all. The belts were also mounted way too low esspecially for the impacted. It undoubtly crushed there spines on impact (broke the back between t1 and L5 somewhere probably causng severe cord injury) A good gusset or brace at the a pillar bend would have kept the back from coming down. The front a pillar bent in compression giving the back of the cage a way to fall. A couple inches and no head injury is all it would take. Then all you have to survive is the G's, and sand and belts can suck up enormous high G impacts. The impact was imparted on ther spine by the belts not there lap/pelvis /legs like it should have been. You can do a lot of damage to the pelvis and legs and still survive thats why all the important stuff is protected by ribs. In general sand cars are incedibly UNSAFE because there is no body that governs anything. No inspections, just a salesman telling the buyer its safe. A salesperson that probably didnt build the car himself and probably doesn t have any real knowledge of what is safe. I havnt seen any high end sand car that didnt spend as much time on saftey design as paint scheme design. I bet most car owners can not quote what wall thickness or material there car is made out of. I also bet most dont know the meaning of gusset. Or know how their belt should fit or how to effective use them. Their primary safety device, they probably use incorrectly. Then chassis s'..... Edited October 30, 2006 by 1320 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino king Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 does this one look safe??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offroadracer Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 I bet most car owners can not quote what wall thickness or material there car is made out of. I also bet most dont know the meaning of gusset. Or know how their belt should fit or how to effective use them. Their primary safety device, they probably use incorrectly. Then chassis s'..... Most sand cars out there are cage is out of 095 tubing for weight on sand as opposed to a desert race or offroad car which is 120 wall, as well as a deser chassis has more down tubes reinforcing the roof to mid cage, so I agree a desert car is going to hold up a hell of lot better than a sand chassis...but as kenny said that whas just a flat impact upside down! thats gonna cause some serious body damage(back,spine..etc..)regardless things happen just have to be safe out there any car take take someone(unfortunately). we can only respect the cars and they will respect you...My thought s are with those families thats a sad sad deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EY3BA11 Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 I talked w/ a co worker this morning and might be able to back up the stuck throttle thing... The motor was JUST installed in that car the previous week so if something wasnt right it is very possible for the stuck throttle.. It sucks that it happened but thats why they call them accidents and thats why most insurance companies call this a high risk sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shwnmil1 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 i looked at that buggy in the crash when they were loading it on the tow truck there was alot of re-welded welds on the buggy plus rust on some of the welds it is unfortunate it happened but it hurts the integrity of the chassis when you re-weld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320 Posted October 31, 2006 Author Share Posted October 31, 2006 does this one look safe??? hard to tell from the photo but a couple things stand out. The A pillar has no brace or gusset. If a 3000lb rail and you meet at the crest of a dune and the 3000lb rail lands on you at say 25 mph is it strong enough not to crush the people in the front? I think it would lay down like an old dog, and a simple brace could really change the integrity of the a pillar. It also appears that the cross bar behind the front seats is far to low which probably holds the upper harness. If it does then the shoulder belts are mounted way too low unless your 4 ft 2 or something. The should belt harness mount should be 90 degrees to the top of the shoulder. Slightly higher is ok as well. But any lower causes spine compression as the belt shortens in impact, causing the occupant to need to be shorter as well, ussually cause disc compression, and thoracic and lumbar back compression fractures of the bone as well. Nice head room though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320 Posted October 31, 2006 Author Share Posted October 31, 2006 On another thread there are two photos of someone towing someone else. The front car, is a four passenger car that needs a lot of work. In almost any serious incident the occupants will be hurt. It has NO b pillar at all, the shoulder harness is mounted so far down it shouldn t even be used cause its more dangerous then not wearing it at all. The cage all four points of mine as well be cut off cause of extra weight, at least if the car is lighter it will react faster and maybe avoid a hit, and then theres the question of what do you wnat to be hit by sand? or a steel bar? 99 % of all sand cars are dangerous to the occupants in some way which is pretty funny considering its sole design purpose is to protect in the enviroment its in. Also strange is that not many people are apparently even interested in saftey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct500lt Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Tragic accident should never have happened. After building off road and sand cars for years there is definately a correct way to brace a frame for just this type of unfortunate event. Never would we throw someone under the bus because of a chassis design, home made or by a professional builder. However our years of experience have taught us what to do and what not to do. You can build what you might consider a bulletproof chassis and still something like this can happen no matter how much tubing or how many gussets you install. We have been retrofitting sand cars for quite some time to reduce the chance of just an incident like this. Make sure your cage and roof top are x braced to lessen the chance of a a lateral collapse and although most people dont like a lid on the car this is something that can change your car from a plow to a ski. Simple changes can save a life or prevent serious injury. Other times nothing can help depending on the type of driver experience, weather conditions or just plain stupidity by others. Once again our condolences go out to the families during this difficult time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDuner Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 On another thread there are two photos of someone towing someone else. The front car, is a four passenger car that needs a lot of work. In almost any serious incident the occupants will be hurt. It has NO b pillar at all, the shoulder harness is mounted so far down it shouldn t even be used cause its more dangerous then not wearing it at all. The cage all four points of mine as well be cut off cause of extra weight, at least if the car is lighter it will react faster and maybe avoid a hit, and then theres the question of what do you wnat to be hit by sand? or a steel bar? 99 % of all sand cars are dangerous to the occupants in some way which is pretty funny considering its sole design purpose is to protect in the enviroment its in. Also strange is that not many people are apparently even interested in saftey. Do you have a picture of your car that is correct, so we know what a perfect car looks like????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EY3BA11 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 I believe he is talking about jim towing back that other feller in the standard travel car... Hey 1320.. Why do tatums have optional b pillars ( quote from 3rotortrav ).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandBox_Kid Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Do you have a picture of your car that is correct, so we know what a perfect car looks like????? I'd like to see the perfect car too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefoot bob Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 i dunno about that guys car structurly, i know it bugs me when they dont have a side pillar. andrew buck before breaking his back was jumping 70 to 80 feet in his cars and 20 to 30 feet high. i witnessed the rollover pictured below. it was end over end and 1 full rollover sideways damage, 1 broken light, 2 broken flags, and 1 ego. we rolled it over and duned all weekend. Saftey is a big deal with me i'm running 600 horsepower to the rear wheels per westech chassi dyno mira loma cal. thats dyno jet not corrected. i was sold on eyeball for a few reasons strength being one of them. q: should we discuss this ?? in lew of what happened A: in my opinion ABSOFUKNLUTELY im sure if anything that man that was running that buggy would want others to know what happened and why and if it could be prevented. It is normal , healthy , and prudent that we discus these matters. Were fathers sons and duners i dont want to see anyone hurt. and if discussing this lets JUST ONE PERSON at minimum look at saftey issues when building or buying a buggy. and make a solid choice then we have done well. To criticise the deceased! no way! inexcuseable . to comment on the structure of the car.Well thats just plain smart. to be concerned to ask " can it be prevented" could it have been survivable wouldnt any of you want to know ?? i do . I believe when god says "its time" your done. and its likely the upside down drop was to much. i would like to know how far it flew.for meerly reasons of structural questions regarding saftey i type this with respect to the departed and there family and i hope they understand its from a preventive stand point that i look at the structural issues regards Bob Cox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandBox_Kid Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Here's a question I have....do you really think a chassis should be back in the dunes if it has taken a hard a$$ hit...like the one picture above? Doesn't that do some damage to the integrity of the overall chassis? I ask because I'm not a structural engineer....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunefreak Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I believe he is talking about jim towing back that other feller in the standard travel car... Hey 1320.. Why do tatums have optional b pillars ( quote from 3rotortrav ).. Dave Larson towed back that yellow buggy, Nick. They have almost the same car. :shocked2: Here is Dave's rail... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefoot bob Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Here's a question I have....do you really think a chassis should be back in the dunes if it has taken a hard a$$ hit...like the one picture above? Doesn't that do some damage to the integrity of the overall chassis? I ask because I'm not a structural engineer....... firepole i cannot answer that i do not know. i do know the chassi biulder.( he is photoed there as well as myself. and a few others)they told me that the car had zero deflection on the angles when disassembled and inspected by the builder. phill is a personnel freind of cris hersch from eyeball. While Chris is an egomaniac he is saftey minded ( he runs a 900 hp twin turbo) and he is biulding a few very high horsepower cars and he is adding all the time to the structure he has gone to thicker wall tubings and different bracing. ( im going to retrofit my bracing as well) he would not let phill into the dunes with that car if he didnt think it was safe. anything more than that i cannot add . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EY3BA11 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Dave Larson towed back that yellow buggy, Nick. They have almost the same car. :shocked2: Here is Dave's rail... I thought maybe jim went to lowes and painted his car or something... good to know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320 Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 Joe, no I dont have a picture , but were did I say I had a perfect car? I believe I commented on the safety compared to the others I was with. ISBB, I can not comment on the decisions or thoughts of TATUM. Since you have the ability to know why other people make decisions can you tell me what my wife is thinking? So why no comments on why all shoulder harness belts are mounted to low ? Im even more surprised that most people just want to argue versus do something constructive like get a few people together and maybe revue peoples cars(who want it) and make suggestions to the set up based on experience, physics, engineering, and other known racing venue technics. No that would make to much sence. Have you guys seen the videos of guys jumping from a tree like 100 ft up with rope tide to there feet? They stop in an instant, some even hit the ground alittle, really amazing that they do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EY3BA11 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 1320 if you read my comment it said it was a quote from 3rotortrav since he has a tatum and that's always his awnser... Tatums dont have b-pillars.. LOL As far as the belt mount location i do agree there alot of builders who mount them in very dangerous spots... ALot of builders need to read this.. http://www.crowenterprizes.com/installation.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefoot bob Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 1320 if you read my comment it said it was a quote from 3rotortrav since he has a tatum and that's always his awnser... Tatums dont have b-pillars.. LOL As far as the belt mount location i do agree there alot of builders who mount them in very dangerous spots... ALot of builders need to read this.. http://www.crowenterprizes.com/installation.asp thats good info right there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandaddict Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Joe, no I dont have a picture , but were did I say I had a perfect car? I believe I commented on the safety compared to the others I was with. ISBB, I can not comment on the decisions or thoughts of TATUM. Since you have the ability to know why other people make decisions can you tell me what my wife is thinking? So why no comments on why all shoulder harness belts are mounted to low ? Im even more surprised that most people just want to argue versus do something constructive like get a few people together and maybe revue peoples cars(who want it) and make suggestions to the set up based on experience, physics, engineering, and other known racing venue technics. No that would make to much sence. Have you guys seen the videos of guys jumping from a tree like 100 ft up with rope tide to there feet? They stop in an instant, some even hit the ground alittle, really amazing that they do it. ok i will be the first to ask about our car. My husband was a weldor/fabricator for ten years. We bought this chassis it is a buggyworks/DD. He has built the rest of the car and welded the extra bracing on it. I am willing to hear your educated opinon and anyone elses who knows what they are talking about in order to keep my family safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offroadracer Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Just an input: You also can get a hold of A.R.T.S safety tech inspect team , I am sure Art would be more than happy to inpect and give you input or your cars safety (he is extremely maticulous on safety due to him self bieng injured in a race accident) as well as tubing thickness without cutting into tubing, he does all of our offroad race tech inpects..he can be located on snores website snoreracing.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefoot bob Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Just an input: You also can get a hold of A.R.T.S safety tech inspect team , I am sure Art would be more than happy to inpect and give you input or your cars safety (he is extremely maticulous on safety due to him self bieng injured in a race accident) as well as tubing thickness without cutting into tubing, he does all of our offroad race tech inpects..he can be located on snores website snoreracing.net the petroleum plants we work on have pipe fitters and they must hold a master welders card and even though they have all that they still require x rays of welds. that xray stuff can tell you alot from what theyr saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320 Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 Amazing, the other thread turned into a flusher unfortunately. I dont think that was the place for, thats why I started this one, but no real action? Maybe they got it out of there systems already? I said basically the same thing as many have stated in the other thread. A couple braces or gussets in most cars can really change the strenght of them and be the difference. Sandaddict: With the pictures you posted of your car, it appears to be one of the best I ve seen. Its so good that via picture it s hard to tell. I think the occupants pictured would survive a similar incident that spurred this lok into saftey. You have good head room, so if there is failure it has some room still. Im guessing that the people pictured ae all sub 6 ft'ers? They just appear lower in the seat then some. I think the shoulder harness should be raised few inches, but its one of the best I ve seen , and should be measured in person to tell for sure. One reason it may be ok is that the occupants maybe on the shorter side. I d raise them as high as possible for them , and that would make it even safe when a larger person rides with you. I think over all the chassis is very good, lots of head room, front and rear, good bracing etc. Id ad small 45 braces at the top of the a,bc pillars, one to add strenght and two because I think it could be done with out taking away anything from the car, due to it goodhead room already etc. I d x brace the roof, I cant really tell if its done forsure, or atleast put a lid on it. Some dont like the limited vision on a hill with a lid, you can just do the center, then use clear or tinted lexan/plastic on the sides to still have some vision out the roof for siting on steep hills. Basically the car is so good it would need to be seen in person to really tear it appart. Try to pick out a bad seat belt mount, etc.... if you run at night, the light you see with is important, you have some of that handled, but being seen is right up there as well. leds, around the car let us all know where your at. nice one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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