Need some input

[SailAway]

We need some input with a “multi-passenger vehicle” issue.

For a while now we’ve been hearing some grumbling about the safety problems with the side-by-sides. There are even some pro-access leaders calling for greater restrictions because of the increased injuries for children.

I have to say, this is an issue that is really a hot one from low to top level. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is already considering a petition that would ban kids under the age of 16 from using an OHV (more in that in another topic) and I have no doubt the rise in side-by-side related injuries will be put on their radar screen very soon.

The fact is, unfortunately, there have been more injuries to children. BUT the increase has not come from kids who are using the vehicles properly. Virtually every major incident has involved a child that is riding improperly in the truck bed of the rhino.

Just last year a young girl lost her arm in such an accident when the rhino she was riding in, unseated and unbelted, rolled over and trapped her arm.

This was a child, a person who, unlike the willing adults who choose an inherently dangerous sport and recognize the possibility of injury, was not capable of making that decision. Her life, her future, her career... all of that will be forever altered because she was out having fun and unaware of the danger.

The saddest part is, this was just a sample of one injury... there have been more and more this season and with the increased popularity of the rhinos, unless something is figured out soon, we will see more and more next season.

This problem doesn’t just affect the injured children and their families... the ripples reach far and wide, even as far as the law enforcement, who will have a tendency to look at all side-by-sides as dangerous toys just because they’ve pulled too many injured kids from them.

The solution would seem to be simple... require the kids to be seated and belted.

But there is no such law for the side-by-sides.

So now what?

That’s why I’m posting this. I know there’s enough brain power (I verified that this weekend) to figure this out.

How do we stop this dangerous trend?

Vicki

[White Rhino]

Vicki

isn't it a shame that the few ruin it for the rest.

as you said how do we make this a non-issue and try to make a some what dangerous sport as safe as possible, especilly for our kids, who really don't have the ability to say whether it is safe or not.

I for one would welcome that kids (say 15 and under) should be in a seat with a safety restraint. although in my opinion everybody should be belted in if your in the dunes.

Thats just my two cents, I even install our kids car seat in our rhino to do my part as much as possible.

course there are some that might say that is even dangerous......

Thanks for all that you do!!

[Danielle]

We need some input with a “multi-passenger vehicle” issue.

For a while now we’ve been hearing some grumbling about the safety problems with the side-by-sides. There are even some pro-access leaders calling for greater restrictions because of the increased injuries for children.

I have to say, this is an issue that is really a hot one from low to top level. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is already considering a petition that would ban kids under the age of 16 from using an OHV (more in that in another topic) and I have no doubt the rise in side-by-side related injuries will be put on their radar screen very soon.

The fact is, unfortunately, there have been more injuries to children. BUT the increase has not come from kids who are using the vehicles properly. Virtually every major incident has involved a child that is riding improperly in the truck bed of the rhino.

Just last year a young girl lost her arm in such an accident when the rhino she was riding in, unseated and unbelted, rolled over and trapped her arm.

This was a child, a person who, unlike the willing adults who choose an inherently dangerous sport and recognize the possibility of injury, was not capable of making that decision. Her life, her future, her career... all of that will be forever altered because she was out having fun and unaware of the danger.

The saddest part is, this was just a sample of one injury... there have been more and more this season and with the increased popularity of the rhinos, unless something is figured out soon, we will see more and more next season.

This problem doesn’t just affect the injured children and their families... the ripples reach far and wide, even as far as the law enforcement, who will have a tendency to look at all side-by-sides as dangerous toys just because they’ve pulled too many injured kids from them.

The solution would seem to be simple... require the kids to be seated and belted.

But there is no such law for the side-by-sides.

So now what?

That’s why I’m posting this. I know there’s enough brain power (I verified that this weekend) to figure this out.

How do we stop this dangerous trend?

Vicki

Vicki,It is amazing that all the laws are so differnt depending on where you are riding.Is there something we can all sighn saying that we feel the rules should be set straight across the board.

1)everyone wears helmets,yes it sucks ,but it is smart.

2)everyone wears seat belts.You have to in a car.It should be no differnt.

3)no one without a valid drivers lisc.can drive a rail or a rhino.just because you are on sand or dirt it is still like a car.

Go figure,utah you can ride doubles,but you dont have to wear helmets.

Ca. you can't ride doubles but you have to wear a helmet.

utah you can't ride under 8, and Ca you can ride any age.

It all doesn't make sense.

Helmets and seat belts should be a given no matter what state you are in.

And as for children riding there own ohv.and as for double riding with children only.Well you know what my thoughts are on that.

But as for the seatbelt and helmet law if there is something we could do we should do it so that way it doesn't get taken away from the people who enjoy it.

I would be more than willing to help if there is anything you need.

[ynot]

The TRT has talked about this issue and I believe there are CA. laws dealing with it. The rule set by BLM at Dumont is that if it has a seat and factory issued belts they must be used and that no vehicle can have a person in an area not designed for riding in. If you add seats to a side by side you have to use seat belts.

I noticed lots(more than usual) people ignoring that law amongst others. Biggest concern was kids in the back of Rhino's with no seat,belt or even a helmet. Why more this weekend? More people than a usual "off" weekend and the fact that not one LEO was observed anywhere all weekend. On top of that the lack of enforcement on these kinds of violations has been severly lacking in my opinion.

[Don29palms]

Vicki,It is amazing that all the laws are so differnt depending on where you are riding.Is there something we can all sighn saying that we feel the rules should be set straight across the board.

1)everyone wears helmets,yes it sucks ,but it is smart.

2)everyone wears seat belts.You have to in a car.It should be no differnt.

3)no one without a valid drivers lisc.can drive a rail or a rhino.just because you are on sand or dirt it is still like a car.

Go figure,utah you can ride doubles,but you dont have to wear helmets.

Ca. you can't ride doubles but you have to wear a helmet.

utah you can't ride under 8, and Ca you can ride any age.

It all doesn't make sense.

Helmets and seat belts should be a given no matter what state you are in.

And as for children riding there own ohv.and as for double riding with children only.Well you know what my thoughts are on that.

But as for the seatbelt and helmet law if there is something we could do we should do it so that way it doesn't get taken away from the people who enjoy it.

I would be more than willing to help if there is anything you need.

Those are YOUR opinions and possibly rules you can live by but you have no right to impose your beliefs on anyone else.

If anyone is riding in the back of a Rhino that doesn't have seats and seatbelts they are breaking the law.If the powers that be would start holding people responsible for their children then maybe parents would start paying more attention to what their kids are doing.

The laws are what they are and we can't change that. I'm not going to say that I always abide by the law all the time. Noone does. But we don't need more people telling us what to do. And lets not get started on the helmet law thing again.

[aceisback]

It's simple. Farm equipment should be on farms. These things are for hauling manure, wood, tools, sod, rocks, dirt, you know, farm stuff.

NOT PEOPLE.

[Warrior07]

just put it this way use your headdddddddddddd when putting someones life in your hand while riding !!!!!!!!!!

i've seen to many things go wrong with other's experinces that even when i see somebody wheeling down a concrete street it bugs the hell out of me

[Danielle]

Those are YOUR opinions and possibly rules you can live by but you have no right to impose your beliefs on anyone else.

If anyone is riding in the back of a Rhino that doesn't have seats and seatbelts they are breaking the law.If the powers that be would start holding people responsible for their children then maybe parents would start paying more attention to what their kids are doing.

The laws are what they are and we can't change that. I'm not going to say that I always abide by the law all the time. Noone does. But we don't need more people telling us what to do. And lets not get started on the helmet law thing again.

Hey don,Thanks for pointing out my reply,I was just refering to Vicki's topic when she asked for input.Seatbelts,helmets they are all safety requirments.and i was just saying how differnt the rules are from state to state.We are all intitled to our opinion.YOU just stated your's from what I read.And i don't think you are imposing your beliefs on anyone else.It was all about the topic."Needed input"Don't you think that was alittle harsh on your comeback to me?Maybe not.That's your opinion...........

[Don29palms]

Hey don,Thanks for pointing out my reply,I was just refering to Vicki's topic when she asked for input.Seatbelts,helmets they are all safety requirments.and i was just saying how differnt the rules are from state to state.We are all intitled to our opinion.YOU just stated your's from what I read.And i don't think you are imposing your beliefs on anyone else.It was all about the topic."Needed input"Don't you think that was alittle harsh on your comeback to me?Maybe not.That's your opinion...........

I didn't mean to be harsh. I am just so tired of people saying we should have to wear helmets in vehicles that you aren't required to wear helmets by law. If you are in a vehicle with a steering wheel, to put it simply, you are required to wear seatbelts. If you are on a vehicle with handlebars, to put it simply, you are required to wear a helmet. If you take all the injuries that happen in a buggy or a Rhino where the people ARE PROPERLY WEARING SEATBELTS very few are head injuries. My whole point is, and again I don't mean to sound harsh, you take care of your own and I'll take care of mine. We don't need more BS rules. As far as minors are concerned, the parents need to be held responsible. If a parent knows their kid is riding around in the back of an improperly equipt Rhino they could and should be charged with child endangerment. If they don't know what their kid is doing, they should. Let's take responsibility for our own actions instead of having some politicians and bureaucrats that don't have a clue telling us what we can and can't do.

If you haven't figured it out by now, you really hit a sore spot.

Edited March 20, 2007 by Don29palms

[Danielle]

I didn't mean to be harsh. I am just so tired of people saying we should have to wear helmets in vehicles that you aren't required to wear helmets by law. If you are in a vehicle with a steering wheel, to put it simply, you are required to wear seatbelts. If you are on a vehicle with handlebars, to put it simply, you are required to wear a helmet. If you take all the injuries that happen in a buggy or a Rhino where the people ARE PROPERLY WEARING SEATBELTS very few are head injuries. My whole point is, and again I don't mean to sound harsh, you take care of your own and I'll take care of mine. We don't need more BS rules. As far as minors are concerned, the parents need to be held responsible. If a parent knows their kid is riding around in the back of an improperly equipt Rhino they could and should be charged with child endangerment. If they don't know what their kid is doing, they should. Let's take responsibility for our own actions instead of having some politicians and bureaucrats that don't have a clue telling us what we can and can't do.

If you haven't figured it out by now, you really hit a sore spot. :jester:

Wow!You left me speechless.If you ask hubby that's a first I guess this is a soar spot for you ,so I will say no more.We don't want to get anyones panties in a ruffle now.

[offroadracer]

I agree with Don enough about the helmits...I understand someones child got injured...where was the parent..apparently not being a parent, but I dont want to come on here and point blame and fingers, its sad to see someone get hurt or worse especially a child,but the way i see it ....just my .02

1.)Anyone driving a rhino or any side by side should have a drivers license..not a 8 year old racing around careless

2.)Parent should be held fully responsible for thier child...

3.)seatbelts should be worn.... they are put in from manufacture for a reason..

Edited March 20, 2007 by OFFROADRACER

[SailAway]

In reading through this it looks like everyone is pretty much on the same page on most of the solutions...

Parents need to supervise.

Seatbelts should be worn.

Helmets? That would appear to be a personal choice in buggies and rhinos. I know Bryan has started wearing his helmet when taking the buggy out for "big boy rides" and I love him for it. When he has me in the car we are just cruising and none of us wear them.

We have friends who REALLY dune their rhinos and they wear helmets when they do. We have other friends who have rolled at least once and still they don't wear theirs.

All of these decisions have been made by adults.

The child bouncing around in the bed of the rhino is not an adult. The little girl riding daddy's rhino who cannot see over the steering wheel is not an adult. The baby on the lap of the adult in the passenger seat as they are flying through the whoops is not an adult.

It is the injuries to these non-adults that we need to consider now.

If it's a matter of lack of enforcement... what do we want to do about it?

Vicki

[offroadracer]

In reading through this it looks like everyone is pretty much on the same page on most of the solutions...

Parents need to supervise.

Seatbelts should be worn.

Helmets? That would appear to be a personal choice in buggies and rhinos. I know Bryan has started wearing his helmet when taking the buggy out for "big boy rides" and I love him for it. When he has me in the car we are just cruising and none of us wear them.

We have friends who REALLY dune their rhinos and they wear helmets when they do. We have other friends who have rolled at least once and still they don't wear theirs.

All of these decisions have been made by adults.

The child bouncing around in the bed of the rhino is not an adult. The little girl riding daddy's rhino who cannot see over the steering wheel is not an adult. The baby on the lap of the adult in the passenger seat as they are flying through the whoops is not an adult.

It is the injuries to these non-adults that we need to consider now.

If it's a matter of lack of enforcement... what do we want to do about it?

Vicki

well said vicki I think it needs to be inforced towards the parents!! as for how...well it needs to become a mandantory such as flags, permits etc and blm to see these actions and hate to say it but get a ticket..should be a serious ticket for endangering a child.I am sure the parents would deal with a ticket better than their child being injured or killed....even though shouldnt come to that.

[desertskyz]

OK! Working with parents on a daily basis, Not everyone no matter what the laws are are going to be accountable.

There are already laws in place for ORV, watercraft, motorcycles etc. Not all parents will follow them. THEY JUST DON'T. We see it everyday. Facts are facts. If a child is injured due the neglegence of the parent then the law and CPS should be brought in.

Was there not a crash on Comp Hill Saturday morning with a couple riding double. Is there not a law against that? They didn't follow the rules or laws.

Sometimes people are of the mind set that "It won't happen to me.", "I only broke the rules/law this one time", or "It's ok he/she does it all the time back home." etc...........

Enforcement is the key. Now having enought funds and people to do the Enforcement is another thing.

Just my

Edited March 20, 2007 by desertskyz

[SandBox_Kid]

Anybody riding in/on an OHV should be in/on a seat designed for "x" number of passengers without exceeding the intended limits (capacity) of that OHV. They shouldn't be riding in the bed of any OHV. They should be in a seat, belted in or on a seat with a helmet like Don stated. I think this comes down to proper use of the equipment and supervision/enforcement.

I cringe sometimes when I see how some of the kids joy ride around the dunes on golf carts as well as Rhino's. The only problem is saying something to the parents or kids could end up like it did for Pete and the camp racing wheelie kid.......

[sandseeker]

Im probably opening a big can of worms with this. You can implement all the laws you want to

and enforce them to the max which will help only a little with your average person . You forget

the parent that is leaving thier kids in unbuckled or in back without a seat belt is the same parent

that doesn't watch their young kids riding on quads and the same parnet showing a bad example

to their kids leaving all the trash we just picked up. The same parent leaving their kids at home alone.

These people are the few that ruin all the fun for the people who do care and take care of thier own family

and have respect for others and the law. None of us can change those people no matter how bad you

want to punch them in the head. Just my 2 cents.

[Sandemon]

Some people on here are missing the point of what Vicki is trying to get.

Make no mistakes about it there are going to be laws made about this, there are to many other infuential people that are calling for them, and we have the chance to help mold the laws to be more to our likeing.

The other alternitive is to sit back and have someone else write the laws that they want. Pick the one you hate the least. B)

[Danielle]

Some people on here are missing the point of what Vicki is trying to get.

Make no mistakes about it there are going to be laws made about this, there are to many other infuential people that are calling for them, and we have the chance to help mold the laws to be more to our likeing.

The other alternitive is to sit back and have someone else write the laws that they want. Pick the one you hate the least. B)

Well put :dance: ,I might have posted my reply alittle misleading,but they are not just going to make laws for children on this topic of side by side it will probally be straight across the board for everyone.Who am I to say.I am learning to just keep my mouth closed,because some people get alittle to uptight on certain topics from what I have read in this topic and others.

[sandseeker]

I agree the driver of any veh side x side or sandrail is responsable to make sure all passengers are

seat belted in and or riding in veh safely and ticketing responsable parties is a good idea.

[SandBox_Kid]

Well put ,I might have posted my reply alittle misleading,but they are not just going to make laws for children on this topic of side by side it will probally be straight across the board for everyone.Who am I to say.I am learning to just keep my mouth closed,because some people get alittle to uptight on certain topics from what I have read in this topic and others.

This is the part that is too generic for some, me included:

Is there something we can all sighn saying that we feel the rules should be set straight across the board.

1)everyone wears helmets,yes it sucks ,but it is smart.

I feel that wearing a helmet in anything with a properly designed roll cage, that is not a sanctioned race/event, is purely an adult decision.

Besides this is an open topic for discussion and everyone is entitled to an opinion even if it upsets others.

[SailAway]

This is a hot subject for many people, including me. There are going to be harsh words and dissenting opinions.

Getting through all that and still working together on the problem is what's important and that's what we're doing here.

I do not advocate new laws where there existing laws to cover the violation, but I do advocate stricter enforcement when the safety and welfare of the duning community is at stake.

Let's talk about parental responsibility for a moment...

There just so happens to be new legislation passed last year (AB 2755) which allows law enforcement to cite the parents instead of just citing the minors...

38504.1. (a) Neither a parent or guardian of a child who is under 14 years of age, nor an adult who is authorized by the parent or guardian to supervise that child shall grant permission to, or knowingly allow, that child to operate an all-terrain vehicle in a manner that violates Section 38504.

(B ) A person convicted of a violation of subdivision (a) is punishable as follows:

(1) For a first conviction, the court shall either impose a fine of one hundred twenty-five dollars ($125) or order the person to take or retake and complete an all-terrain vehicle safety training course pursuant to Section 38501. If ordered to take or retake and complete the safety training course, the person shall provide the court a copy of the all-terrain vehicles safety certificate issued as a result of that completion.

(2) For a second conviction, a fine of not less than one hundred twenty-five dollars ($125) nor more than two hundred fifty dollars ($250).

(3) For a third or any subsequent conviction, a fine of not less than two hundred fifty dollars ($250) nor more than five hundred dollars ($500).

SEC. 2. Section 38504.2 is added to the Vehicle Code, to read:

38504.2. If a person under 14 years of age was not properly supervised or accompanied in accordance with Section 38504, and the parent or guardian of that child or the adult who was authorized by the parent or guardian to supervise or accompany that child is in violation of Section 38504.1, upon a conviction pursuant to Section 38504, the court may order that child to attend and complete the all-terrain vehicle safety training course accompanied by the person who violated Section 38504.1. If so ordered, the child under 14 years

of age shall provide the court a copy of the all-terrain vehicles safety certificate issued as a result of that completion.

SEC. 3. No reimbursement is required by this act pursuant to Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California Constitution because the only costs that may be incurred by a local agency or school district will be incurred because this act creates a new crime or infraction, eliminates a crime or infraction, or changes the penalty

for a crime or infraction, within the meaning of Section 17556 of the Government Code, or changes the definition of a crime within the meaning of Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California

Constitution.

BUT...

None of that does any good without enforcement.

And I'm telling you here and now, unless those injuries are greatly reduced, we will ALL lose.

We already have the Consumer Product Safety Commission seriously considering outlawing use of ATVs by people under the age of 16 (remember, the CPSC shut down the manufacture of 3-wheelers in the US). Is that where we want this to go?

As Sandemon said... if we don't help come up with a solution, we leave it to the imagination of legislators who do not have their hearts in our community.

We have an opportunity to shape our future instead of allowing it to be decided for us.

We don't want children under 16 banned from side-by-sides or any off-road vehicle.

If anyone stands with us on this, now's the time to help come up with a better solution.

Vicki

Edited March 20, 2007 by SailAway

[Danielle]

This is the part that is too generic for some, me included:

I feel that wearing a helmet in anything with a properly designed roll cage, that is not a sanctioned race/event, is purely an adult decision.

Besides this is an open topic for discussion and everyone is entitled to an opinion even if it upsets others.

True.But I personally don't want to .I just enjoy reading the info,and don't mean to piss anyone off

Edited March 20, 2007 by Dani

[Sandemon]

True.But I personally don't want to .I just enjoy reading the info,and don't mean to piss anyone off

Dani, Do not let anyone else stop you from posting your opinions. Your opinions are valid no matter who disagrees with them, and it helps those of us that represent the users to know how the users feel. :dance: B)

[ahsumtoy]

Im probably opening a big can of worms with this. You can implement all the laws you want to

and enforce them to the max which will help only a little with your average person . You forget

the parent that is leaving thier kids in unbuckled or in back without a seat belt is the same parent

that doesn't watch their young kids riding on quads and the same parnet showing a bad example

to their kids leaving all the trash we just picked up. The same parent leaving their kids at home alone.

These people are the few that ruin all the fun for the people who do care and take care of thier own family

and have respect for others and the law. None of us can change those people no matter how bad you

want to punch them in the head. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with you Sandseeker. I have a Rhino and I put 4 pt. harness on it, side doors so your legs won't come out, etc. etc. and my family runs it responsibly, not crazy. My 15 year old daughter drives it, but only when I am in it and we are all buckled up. Some people would say she rides a too powerfull quad (Raptor 700R) but she has been riding since she has been 5 years old and we have gone out about 10 times a season for the last 10 years. She is a great rider. She is very carefull, never rides beyond her limits and I am always there with her. Parents need to be responsible and teach their children correctly. We have taught her to respect others and when we come out of the dunes, we never race through camp sites. We also have a rail and we have made the decision to wear helmets. That's our personal choice and would not like that to become law. We have taught her never to litter and respect everybody's land. Unfortunately, not all parents care what their kids do and are not even a good example for them.

[Richard Cheese]

OK! Working with parents on a daily basis, Not everyone no matter what the laws are are going to be accountable.

There are already laws in place for ORV, watercraft, motorcycles etc. Not all parents will follow them. THEY JUST DON'T. We see it everyday. Facts are facts. If a child is injured due the neglegence of the parent then the law and CPS should be brought in.

Was there not a crash on Comp Hill Saturday morning with a couple riding double. Is there not a law against that? They didn't follow the rules or laws.

Sometimes people are of the mind set that "It won't happen to me.", "I only broke the rules/law this one time", or "It's ok he/she does it all the time back home." etc...........

Enforcement is the key. Now having enought funds and people to do the Enforcement is another thing.

Just my

echo that. enforcement is the key. There SHOULD be laws against stupidity, and not possessing common sense, but then half the population would be in jail :dance: