New Dumont fees for 07/08 season

[dunefreak]

I'm not buying one....I'm just gonna ride in with the Prez!!!!!!!

ok, but I charge my ride along dune groupies 75% of my trip expenses!

[FE135]

You also have to look at the "traffic" problems that different passes/stickers would cause. Imagine everyone that leaves on Sunday of President's weekend and having the fee contractor having to spend more time verifing that all the stickers are in place, proper holiday, full season vs. season pass with holiday stickers, Veterans stickers, Eagle passes etc. The traffic nightmare would be horific! I am already concerned about holiday's and the proper passes for those 5 special weekends. Nobody wants to spend 2 hours in traffic just waiting to leave. I believe we have to keep it as simple as possible. Not that I don't think that vet's shouldn't get a free pass and that may be something we at the TRT can address.

This shouldn't be difficult. I show my pass to the workers that take my money, and get a pass. Since this is a fereral law, Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act of 2004, The BLM should already have a plan.

[SailAway]

According to the website...

Provides entrance or access to pass holder and accompanying passengers in a single, private, non-commercial vehicle at Federally operated recreation sites across the country.

Dumont does not charge an entrance fee.

For senior citizens and those with permanent disabilities, this has been added:

The Senior Pass provides a 50 percent discount on some Expanded Amenity Fees charged for facilities and services such as camping, swimming, boat launch, and specialized interpretive services. In some cases where Expanded Amenity Fees are charged, only the pass holder will be given the 50 percent price reduction. The pass is non-transferable and generally does NOT cover or reduce special recreation permit fees or fees charged by concessionaires.{emphasis added}

The fee charged at Dumont is not an entrance fee. It is a use fee, based on cost recovery. Dumont does not charge "expanded amenity fees."

Vicki

[FE135]

According to the website...

Dumont does not charge an entrance fee.

For senior citizens and those with permanent disabilities, this has been added:

The fee charged at Dumont is not an entrance fee. It is a use fee, based on cost recovery. Dumont does not charge "expanded amenity fees."

Vicki

I disagree. I can't enter unless I pay, therefore an entry fee. What it is based on means nothing in this regard.

I know your playing devils advocate on this and I understand. The web sites we are quoting from are not the final word on the subject and an analysis of the actual federal legislation is necessary. I will try to find and read it.

Perhaps there are enough questions here to at least address the subject at the next TRT meeting. I’m sure you have a few phone numbers handy.

If this privilege is extended at other BLM areas then it must be here.

[FE135]

Check this out, from what I read so far, the law that allows the fees at Dumont is the same law that allows the passes.

http://www.doi.gov/initiatives/ImplementationFAQ.pdf

[FE135]

Found this from the: RECREATION FEE GUIDELINES FOR THE BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT

National Passes – For visitor convenience, an interagency national pass will be

developed “America the Beautiful - National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands

Pass.” Until this pass is available, the Golden Passports, i.e., Golden Eagle, Golden

Age, and Golden Access Passports, will be accepted as the national pass for all sites

and areas that meet the definition for standard amenity fees (change “entrance” fee

definition from Land and Water Conservation Fund Act-LWCFA-to align with the

“standard amenity” fee definition). Until they are replaced, Golden Age and Golden

Access passports will continue to provide benefits as currently authorized for

expanded amenity recreation fee sites in category 3a, 3b, 3c, 3d, (50% discount).

Passes will not be accepted for sites and services meeting category 3e, 3f, 3g, 3h, 3i,

3j, 3k, 3l, or 3m.

http://www.blm.gov/nhp/efoia/wo/fy05/im2005-063attach1.pdf

[SailAway]

Actually I'm afraid I'm not playing devil's advocate.

The fee systems are complex. Perhaps I have been a little simplistic in my explanations but that is because the text of the whole thing, let alone deciphering it, is terribly daunting. Once you find and read the full wording of the legislation that allows fees to be charged, you will start to see things like "improved" areas and "special recreation" and many more that will keep the system evolving.

According to the National Parks Service:

1) Your Annual Pass covers Entrance Fees or Standard Amenity Fees at sites managed by USDA FS, NPS, USFWS, BLM and Reclamation.

2) Valid for one full year from month of validation.

3) Provides entrance or access to pass holder and accompanying passengers in a single, private, non-commercial vehicle at Federal operated recreation sites across the country.

4) Covers the pass holder and three (3) accompanying adults age 16 and older at sites where per person entrance fees are charged. No entry fee for children 15 and under.

5) Photo identification may be required to verify ownership.

6) Passes are NON-REFUNDABLE, NON-TRANSFERABLE, and cannot be replaced if lost or stolen.

7) Fees vary widely across the thousands of Federal Recreation sites. Please contact specific sites directly for information on what is or is not covered.

8) If you are 62 or older or receive disability benefits, you may be eligible for the Senior or Access pass.

9) This pass replaces the National Parks Pass and Golden Eagle.

It might seem that "cost recovery fee" and "entrance fee" are one and the same but in the case of Dumont, I think a judge would find the distinction easily. But hey, it would certainly be an interesting court battle. Speaking as myself and not as FoDD, I have to say that I don't agree with having to pay any kind of fee to use public land.

Finally, while I completely agree that this is something that can be addressed by the TRT and absolutely encourage you to attend the next meeting to properly represent the issue, I would also just give a little caution to not get your hopes up too high. It seems to me that the government covered their backsides easily on this with the whole "fees vary widely" caveat.

Vicki

Edited April 20, 2007 by SailAway

[FE135]

Speaking as myself and not as FoDD, I have to say that I don't agree with having to pay any kind of fee to use public land.

Vicki

Agreed!!

I will attempt to make myself available at the next TRT.

[aceisback]

Vicki, I can see you will make an outstanding bureaucrat someday. Your way with words and the whole thought process of making it another wrangled mess of red tape and political BS is astounding.

What I'm trying to get across as a simple question is not that hard to purpose to the powers that be. It's quite simple actually. Just like EVERYWHERE else that these cards are accepted, all that would be required is to show your ID along with the card and presto, situation takes all of five seconds.

It doesn't require different colored this and thats, no two mile back ups while Western Maintenance tries to decipher the whole ordeal. Just a one time shot when you buy your annual pass, hand them your $90-120, well half of it anyway, your Golden Eagle Access Pass, your Military or other valid ID, they hand you your cute little dangly pass and you're in. One time a year just like now.

I have addressed this with BLM personally in Barstow on several occasions over the past six years and it's a big shoulder shrugging/head scratching ordeal that ends up with the supervisor invariably saying "maybe you should call Sacramento".

Sorry I brought it up. Just looking out for my fellow Americans. Can you do me a favor when you get sworn in? I'd really like a hook up with Barbra Boxer and for my good friend Jason maybe a hook up with Nancy Pelosi if she happens to be in town.

Edited April 20, 2007 by aceisback

[SailAway]

Yikes! I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone else.

I thought Terry and I had been doing a decent job answering the questions. My apologies.

If the answers are not satisfactory, I would suggest you attend the next TRT meeting and address it again with the BLM.

I have attempted to explain the way I see it; obviously we do not see it the same way, which is dandy and fine.

See you at the next TRT meeting.

Vicki

[SailAway]

Agreed!!

I will attempt to make myself available at the next TRT.

Excellent!

I'll do some more research in the meantime. I like the idea of discounts for disabled persons, vets and senior citizens. I just do not know if it's feasible at Dumont, unfortunately.

Hopefully we can figure out a way that we don't have to raise the fees to allow it, and don't make it unduly burdensome for the pass handlers (which would also raise our fees) and can keep it simple enough but still fraud proof.

Vicki

Edited April 20, 2007 by SailAway

[dunefreak]

you haven't offended me in any way, Vicki. You and Terry do excellent jobs especially for how much you get payed to do those jobs (nothing)!

Keep up the good work- we all appreciate it

[aceisback]

I just do not know if it's feasible at Dumont, unfortunately.

It's not a Dumont thing, it's an entire California BLM issue. All other states seemed to have found a way to make it work, and without any of these far fetched and wildazz inconveniences that a few folks have come up with.

As I stated earlier, I have addressed it with BLM for the past six years, just as I did the issue on the two up ATVs that are on the market. That rule did finally get rewritten to where two people can ride an ATV if it's designed as such. They treated me like I was from Pluto, until I showed them actual pictures of the Bombardier two ups.

You didn't offend me, I just think your line of work should include politics. You have a way.

And I do appreciate yours and Terry's representation of us duners at the meetings. You fight our fight up in that area and I'll fight the fight down here in the Morongo Basin where they are on the hot rails to banning all OHV activity. :worthless_without_pics:

As stated earlier, EVERYWHERE else but beautiful sunny California has found a way to make the pass system work. Can't see how it would be so unduly burdensome to the pass handlers just in this state.

Edited April 21, 2007 by aceisback

[FE135]

Absolutely no offense taken here. I truly believe Vicky is ultimately on my side of this discussion but must look at it from all angles. This is OK with me.

From what I have read so far (barring a little more research), the Barstow BLM is not in compliance with the recreation act. This is my opinion only.

I will call the BLM myself. Probably next week, and ask them some specific questions. I will also contact the DAV (Disabled American Veterans) and see if this has been a problem before and ask some advice.

If I’m wrong then so be it. I’ll pay my $120 and go out to the dunes and break my buggy again anyway (bad joke). Based on Aceisback’s experience, the program is accepted elsewhere and must be equally applied.

[RAGDOLL MX]

ok Pete, i do understand. Iam sure that if i read everysingle post I probably would have caught all of that. I just dont want to see all of our "Dumont Money" go to some senator or congress man to pad their pocket.

thats all that iam saying, no one has hear me once complain about the price going up, iam still going to buy a season pass no matter what, last year i didnt, and i spent over 200.00 going to dumont on day passes....when I should have just spent the 60.00, oh well, I dont care. I just want to ride.

no matter to me what they charge, iam riding....

[FE135]

Well after some research, this is my conclusion:

The Golden access or Access pass commonly used by disabled persons are not required to be accepted at Dumont.

Dumont is designated a “special recreation permit fee area” which falls under category 3j in the fee guidelines issued by the BLM. This category exempts the passes.

http://www.blm.gov/nhp/efoia/wo/fy05/im2005-063attach1.pdf

Attachment 1-7

http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ca/p...ent_Act_REA.pdf

Page 4

I am very disappointed that no provisions exist for disabled vets or any disabled person. I’m still awaiting some phone calls but don’t foresee any sense of urgency on the BLM’s part to change this. I can only hope I misread something and welcome any inputs from all of you.

This is a subject that should be brought up at the TRT. If a road can be built on the non existent threat of dust, perhaps a reasonable request from some vets can be heard.

Neal

FE135

[aceisback]

Okay, it states early on that "fees will be nationally consistent" and also "be consistent and similar among agencies". So, are the other states out West here in non compliance with California or vice versa?

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but where is this "intensive management of OHV recreation areas"? I've been to both Glamis and Dumont during the week and on off weekends and have gone many trips without seing any LEOs, any BLM personel, of anyone else who be construed as managing anything at all.

I know that's not the point of this thread, but just a thought. Still confused as to how all of our bordering states can offer this benefit that so many of us have earned, but the Socialist Republic of California can't give a rats azz?

Oh, life would be so much easier if I had just been born South of the border, came here illegally, and then had all of you hard working tax payers foot the bill for my education, my medical expenses, and allow me so kindly to drive on your Hiways and Byways with no insurance.

[Richard Cheese]

Okay, it states early on that "fees will be nationally consistent" and also "be consistent and similar among agencies". So, are the other states out West here in non compliance with California or vice versa?

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but where is this "intensive management of OHV recreation areas"? I've been to both Glamis and Dumont during the week and on off weekends and have gone many trips without seing any LEOs, any BLM personel, of anyone else who be construed as managing anything at all.

I know that's not the point of this thread, but just a thought. Still confused as to how all of our bordering states can offer this benefit that so many of us have earned, but the Socialist Republic of California can't give a rats azz?

Oh, life would be so much easier if I had just been born South of the border, came here illegally, and then had all of you hard working tax payers foot the bill for my education, my medical expenses, and allow me so kindly to drive on your Hiways and Byways with no insurance.

alright victor sanchez....calm the effe down :angry2:

that does suck that Ca won't take your vet pass. Face it vic, a crack whore with 12 kids is more important than you!!! you know, that extra 15 bucks to 60 bucks you would save could go to give her ONE more hit........................................................

get a petition going...I wil sign it

[FE135]

Okay, it states early on that "fees will be nationally consistent" and also "be consistent and similar among agencies". So, are the other states out West here in non compliance with California or vice versa?

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but where is this "intensive management of OHV recreation areas"? I've been to both Glamis and Dumont during the week and on off weekends and have gone many trips without seing any LEOs, any BLM personel, of anyone else who be construed as managing anything at all.

I know that's not the point of this thread, but just a thought. Still confused as to how all of our bordering states can offer this benefit that so many of us have earned, but the Socialist Republic of California can't give a rats azz?

Oh, life would be so much easier if I had just been born South of the border, came here illegally, and then had all of you hard working tax payers foot the bill for my education, my medical expenses, and allow me so kindly to drive on your Hiways and Byways with no insurance.

Your not reading it wrong. Dumont doesn't even meet the requirement for a category 3, which would allow the pass. They used the one option that kills it by calling it a special recreation permit fee area. The verbage specifically exempts that area from passes. BTW, its the same for Glamis.

Aceisback, what dune area has allowed your pass? That way I can compare their rules.

[Richard Cheese]

Your not reading it wrong. Dumont doesn't even meet the requirement for a category 3, which would allow the pass. They used the one option that kills it by calling it a special recreation permit fee area. The verbage specifically exempts that area from passes. BTW, its the same for Glamis.

Aceisback, what dune area has allowed your pass? That way I can compare their rules.

i know that he has been to sand mountain NV, sand mountain UT, maybe pismo....................

[FE135]

i know that he has been to sand mountain NV, sand mountain UT, maybe pismo....................

Thanks, I'll look them up. Pismo is a state recreation area. They have there own rules for vets. They offer certain % disabled vets a discount to all state parks and they DO return phone calls( are you listening BLM ).

[aceisback]

LOL, Victor Sanchez. Now that's funny shizzle right there Jason. By the way, we're doing Buttercup on the first weekend of May, C'mon down.

No Pismo yet for me, but if they are a State park then they would honor the pass. Hopefully I'll get to find out in June. Or whenever the Hell 4SCS is going to be there. It's a CA BLM problem going on here. Even the Western Maintenance folks were perplexed.

Hopefully for the sake of everybody who has either purchased or earned one of these various passes everything will get sorted out. I'm not holding my breath however...

[SailAway]

No Pismo yet for me, but if they are a State park then they would honor the pass.

Which pass are you referring to? State and Federal are two different systems. The America The Beautiful pass, which replaced the Golden Eagle pass, is a National Parks system program.

California has come up with their own pass program called the Golden Poppy Annual Day Use and Pismo State Beach is one of the included parks, but keep in mind it is a day use pass so there will be an additional camping fee.

Here is a complete list of included parks and unfortunately I do not see any of the State Vehicle Recreation Areas such as Hungry Valley, Hollister or Ocotillo listed.

Vicki

[FE135]

For Pismo, I was refering to this:

STATE PARKS AND RECREATION PASS

THE BENEFITS

A lifetime State of California Parks pass for only $3.50.

WHO MAY BE ELIGIBLE

Any veteran with a service-connected disability rated at 50% or greater, or a former Prisoner of War.

HOW TO APPLY

To apply by mail, a veteran should submit: (1) a completed Department of Parks and Recreation form DPR 619, (2) a letter from the USDVA verifying a service-connected disability rated at 50% or greater, or former Prisoner of War status (3) a copy of the veterans drivers license to verify California residency, and (4) a check or money order for $3.50 made payable to the Department of Parks and Recreation.

California Department of Parks and Recreation

Field Services Division

P.O. Box 942896

Sacramento, CA 94296-0001

(916) 653-4272

http://www.parks.ca.gov/.

Taken from: http://www.cdva.ca.gov/cdva/benefits.asp#parks

[SailAway]

STATE PARKS AND RECREATION PASS

THE BENEFITS

A lifetime State of California Parks pass for only $3.50.

WHO MAY BE ELIGIBLE

Any veteran with a service-connected disability rated at 50% or greater, or a former Prisoner of War.

HOW TO APPLY

To apply by mail, a veteran should submit: (1) a completed Department of Parks and Recreation form DPR 619, (2) a letter from the USDVA verifying a service-connected disability rated at 50% or greater, or former Prisoner of War status (3) a copy of the veterans drivers license to verify California residency, and (4) a check or money order for $3.50 made payable to the Department of Parks and Recreation.

California Department of Parks and Recreation

Field Services Division

P.O. Box 942896

Sacramento, CA 94296-0001

(916) 653-4272

http://www.parks.ca.gov/.

Well, they don't show any exclusions or conditions so I sure hope they do accept it! The applicant certainly has to jump through enough hoops to get it.

Please keep us posted.

Vicki