barefoot bob Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 (edited) gentlemen i always thought the best defence is a good offence. While i completely agree the necessity for fodd and asa i just wonder if pressing some issues instead of just fighting for whats left would not be a viable alternative to help hold or expand the dune areas we already have ?? we defend whats left and of course it turns into a compramise to satisfy both parties. but eco freaks attack and attack and attack which when we defend goes to a compramise and we lose another little piece. if we adopted there policies maybe we could opena small piece and so on attack attack attack and force a reversal . cause the eco freaks to defend and we gain a piece in a compramise. instead of losing a piece. I am certainly not a lawyer, but i think my views consider some merit. We the people do have all of Dumont and we have to constantly worry about closure . However, for a different view point. we already hold this ground so to speak. if we moved forward and for example went after a place like kelso dunes would that not cause the ecos to have to defend there stance on the closure. It leaves dumont , in a way , out of there focus cause they have to fight us off on another issue.The greenies seem not to care about odds they attack and take everything all the way up to the fedral level. Think about it , they have not yet got a piece of dumont but they have taken all the land around it. Wouldnt getting our own enviromentle studies and filing our own lawsuits against the government for denying access to public lands wake them up to the fact that we are asking for rights to our own public lands ?? i read an article in sand sports where the asa had caught the greenies filing suits about the milkvetch with partial enviromentle reports that were inconclusive and caught them downright lying on some of there documents. end result was which this is by no means exact it wound up as another compramise and they were able to keep there closures. it seemsthat pooling recourses from the several orginisations to attack in general would be a much better system than splintered groups all trying to stop the greenies from taking peices of everything and start trying to reopen areas and take peices back ??? possibly even with all recourses combined we might not still be as large as the greenies but maybie we could make a big enough dent to slow them down ??? by appearances the way the areas are being defended is constantly a loss of more riding area. we claim victory cause we saved a piece but is it not still a loss of ground ?? my view is the only way to preserve glamis and dumont is to start trying to take land back. even if it takes rallying other groups and starts with taking land back ( as example around dumont) no its not sand related but it possibly would provoke other groups to help pitch in to help open it up and get them to help pledge support to help open up other closed dunes. by appearance if the greenies used inconcusive reports and falsified docs to get a closure once. chances are they have done it before. just some thoughts............................................ Edited August 18, 2007 by barefoot bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Cheese Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 i fully agree with you bob...the f*cking eco freaks are constantly on the offensive........taught well by the liberals.. the kelso dunes are a great example of what needs to be opened up to the public it is obvious, that, over the years, defending what we have left doesn't work the problem as I see it are the vast number of groups that represent our sport....ASA, FOOD, FODD, ORBA, DUNESAFE......and a shiatload more..........they are never on the same page. if we could get them together, as a coalition, then the defenders of our sport would be unstoppable, in my opinion. I say we attempt to get the Kelso Dunes back....fk the landgrabbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunerocket Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 I think it would be a good idea to go after other areas. The problem I see is nobody sticks together you get 4 different offroad groups wanting things and not working together to keep all areas open. motorcycles, quads,jeep clubs,bicycles all working for something but, not together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don29palms Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 I don't mean to offend anyone but you obviously don't understand how they are getting these areas closed. The Eco-terrorists are not just against off roading they are against all access for everybody. They use the Endangered Species Act to get areas closed. They don't care about the environment. What they do care about is the millions of dollars they get from studies and lawyers fees and other stuff. Kelso will never be opened again because of some endangered bug that only lives at Kelso dunes. If you read some of the agreements on these closures You will find that some dunes were closed and Dumont was part of the deal to be open to off road use FOREVER. Remember that word forever. All of Glamis use to be open for off road use. Then in the 70s there was an agreement to close a portion permanently and the rst of Glamis would be opened for off road use FOREVER. There were no provisions for any future closures for any reason. The Eco-terrorists have found a way to get their closures of our areas by using the afore mentioned Endangered Species Act. They use that act to take land away from everyone. If you think it's bad now just wait until the Democrats get voted back into office. We will really be up for a fight then. P.S. It would be easier to start getting areas like Rice dunes open. Rice Dunes was closed because of lack of use and not some eco BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bound4Dirt Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 gentlemen i always thought the best defence is a good offence. While i completely agree the necessity for fodd and asa i just wonder if pressing some issues instead of just fighting for whats left would not be a viable alternative to help hold or expand the dune areas we already have ?? we defend whats left and of course it turns into a compramise to satisfy both parties. but eco freaks attack and attack and attack which when we defend goes to a compramise and we lose another little piece. if we adopted there policies maybe we could opena small piece and so on attack attack attack and force a reversal . cause the eco freaks to defend and we gain a piece in a compramise. instead of losing a piece. I am certainly not a lawyer, but i think my views consider some merit. We the people do have all of Dumont and we have to constantly worry about closure . However, for a different view point. we already hold this ground so to speak. if we moved forward and for example went after a place like kelso dunes would that not cause the ecos to have to defend there stance on the closure. It leaves dumont , in a way , out of there focus cause they have to fight us off on another issue.The greenies seem not to care about odds they attack and take everything all the way up to the fedral level. Think about it , they have not yet got a piece of dumont but they have taken all the land around it. Wouldnt getting our own enviromentle studies and filing our own lawsuits against the government for denying access to public lands wake them up to the fact that we are asking for rights to our own public lands ?? i read an article in sand sports where the asa had caught the greenies filing suits about the milkvetch with partial enviromentle reports that were inconclusive and caught them downright lying on some of there documents. end result was which this is by no means exact it wound up as another compramise and they were able to keep there closures. it seemsthat pooling recourses from the several orginisations to attack in general would be a much better system than splintered groups all trying to stop the greenies from taking peices of everything and start trying to reopen areas and take peices back ??? possibly even with all recourses combined we might not still be as large as the greenies but maybie we could make a big enough dent to slow them down ??? by appearances the way the areas are being defended is constantly a loss of more riding area. we claim victory cause we saved a piece but is it not still a loss of ground ?? my view is the only way to preserve glamis and dumont is to start trying to take land back. even if it takes rallying other groups and starts with taking land back ( as example around dumont) no its not sand related but it possibly would provoke other groups to help pitch in to help open it up and get them to help pledge support to help open up other closed dunes. by appearance if the greenies used inconcusive reports and falsified docs to get a closure once. chances are they have done it before. just some thoughts............................................ I also agree. Why isn't the manufactures of atv's fighting the "war"? This is only going to stop sales and effect their bottom line too. Maybe DDR can get involved and bring this to the attention of the manufactures and show them they are going to loose sales. Only then will they see are point when money is showed as a loss. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefoot bob Posted August 19, 2007 Author Share Posted August 19, 2007 (edited) b4 dirt there already is a coalition of manufacturers i think its called corva don, you are right i do not know all the ins and outs although i am willing to learn. the bugs you mentioned as i said earlier what if the groups took the time to study there enviromentle study couldnt it be possible that they mislead the government on there enviromentle study ?? and would not punching holes in that study also cause them to take another look or allow these groups to pursue a case to open up even a piece of it. Im only using kelso as an example although i must say it looks like it could be awsom riding area ! and one of my main points i was trying to convey. dune rocket nailed it combine and attack if we just try to hold ground the comprises make us lose ground. call this thinking out loud to ellicit a response from people who do know. and pose questions try to answer the most obvious question . which is why there not banding together for a common intrest. or at least question themselves as to there method of defending our riding areas. Edited August 19, 2007 by barefoot bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don29palms Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 The biggest problem is the endangered species act. There were some representatives that were working on getting the act changed and guess what hapened? They were voted out of office and the things tey were working on stopped. athe way it is right now it is almost impossible to get something remove from the endangered list. Groups such as the Center for Biological Diversity would love for you to start a lawsuit to open things up because they would make MILLIONS of dollars. Those studies cost a tremendous amount of money and take years to do. I don't mean to sound like a nay sayer but until some laws are changed it's going to get worse. Another thing the Eco-Terrorist do is they file these suits in superior courts in places like Berkeley,Ca. and San Francisco.Ca. where the judges are Eco-Terrorists themselves. We are fighting an uphill battle because the laws are set up against us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bound4Dirt Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 b4 dirt there already is a coalition of manufacturers i think its called corva don, you are right i do not know all the ins and outs although i am willing to learn. the bugs you mentioned as i said earlier what if the groups took the time to study there enviromentle study couldnt it be possible that they mislead the government on there enviromentle study ?? and would not punching holes in that study also cause them to take another look or allow these groups to pursue a case to open up even a piece of it. Im only using kelso as an example although i must say it looks like it could be awsom riding area ! and one of my main points i was trying to convey. dune rocket nailed it combine and attack if we just try to hold ground the comprises make us lose ground. call this thinking out loud to ellicit a response from people who do know. and pose questions try to answer the most obvious question . which is why there not banding together for a common intrest. or at least question themselves as to there method of defending our riding areas. http://www.corva.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailAway Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 This isn't going to be a very warm and fuzzy answer... Reopening already closed land is a dandy idea. Opening Kelso dunes would be absolutely wonderful. A more like victory would be the Rice Valley dunes that were not closed under a Congressional act, but rather, closed by the BLM due to "under usage." Either fight is daunting and costly though and, well, the user groups are already struggling just to fight the battles they are embroiled in. Finding time and money to start even the most worthy fight is the problem we all face. It's not a matter of what would work or what is worthy. Every fight for land access is worthy. The problem is time and money, and that's the sad fact of it. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefoot bob Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share Posted August 20, 2007 (edited) This isn't going to be a very warm and fuzzy answer... Reopening already closed land is a dandy idea. Opening Kelso dunes would be absolutely wonderful. A more like victory would be the Rice Valley dunes that were not closed under a Congressional act, but rather, closed by the BLM due to "under usage." Either fight is daunting and costly though and, well, the user groups are already struggling just to fight the battles they are embroiled in. Finding time and money to start even the most worthy fight is the problem we all face. It's not a matter of what would work or what is worthy. Every fight for land access is worthy. The problem is time and money, and that's the sad fact of it. Vicki with that said then my suggestion of these splinter groups allieing for a common cause has merit . by the way hi vicky !!! where is rice dunes ?? Edited August 20, 2007 by barefoot bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don29palms Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 I don't mean to offend anyone but you obviously don't understand how they are getting these areas closed. The Eco-terrorists are not just against off roading they are against all access for everybody. They use the Endangered Species Act to get areas closed. They don't care about the environment. What they do care about is the millions of dollars they get from studies and lawyers fees and other stuff. Kelso will never be opened again because of some endangered bug that only lives at Kelso dunes. If you read some of the agreements on these closures You will find that some dunes were closed and Dumont was part of the deal to be open to off road use FOREVER. Remember that word forever. All of Glamis use to be open for off road use. Then in the 70s there was an agreement to close a portion permanently and the rst of Glamis would be opened for off road use FOREVER. There were no provisions for any future closures for any reason. The Eco-terrorists have found a way to get their closures of our areas by using the afore mentioned Endangered Species Act. They use that act to take land away from everyone. If you think it's bad now just wait until the Democrats get voted back into office. We will really be up for a fight then. P.S. It would be easier to start getting areas like Rice dunes open. Rice Dunes was closed because of lack of use and not some eco BS. This isn't going to be a very warm and fuzzy answer... Reopening already closed land is a dandy idea. Opening Kelso dunes would be absolutely wonderful. A more like victory would be the Rice Valley dunes that were not closed under a Congressional act, but rather, closed by the BLM due to "under usage." Either fight is daunting and costly though and, well, the user groups are already struggling just to fight the battles they are embroiled in. Finding time and money to start even the most worthy fight is the problem we all face. It's not a matter of what would work or what is worthy. Every fight for land access is worthy. The problem is time and money, and that's the sad fact of it. Vicki How many times does it need to be said? I know what I'm talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefoot bob Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share Posted August 20, 2007 How many times does it need to be said? I know what I'm talking about. don i have some more midol want some ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Cheese Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 This isn't going to be a very warm and fuzzy answer... Reopening already closed land is a dandy idea. Opening Kelso dunes would be absolutely wonderful. A more like victory would be the Rice Valley dunes that were not closed under a Congressional act, but rather, closed by the BLM due to "under usage." Either fight is daunting and costly though and, well, the user groups are already struggling just to fight the battles they are embroiled in. Finding time and money to start even the most worthy fight is the problem we all face. It's not a matter of what would work or what is worthy. Every fight for land access is worthy. The problem is time and money, and that's the sad fact of it. Vicki good to see ya here Vicki !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailAway Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 good to see ya here Vicki !!! Good to be here and I am very sorry for my absence. A quick tale of woe here... At the end of May our waterbed failed and subsequently ruined our bedroom carpeting, which was quickly replaced with some fabulous laminated flooring. Then comes two seniors graduating and a vacation in Idaho. Three days after returning from Idaho, a water line bursts in the front bathroom, flooding both bathrooms, one and 1/2 kid bedrooms, 50% of a hallway and, of course, 1/3 of our fabulous new laminated flooring in the master bedroom. Began repairs and a few days later discovered puddling in the hallway... just outside the water heater storage closet. So, since June we have been up to our you-know-whats in projects, some necessary and some thrown in because heck, we were doing the other stuff anyway. One gutted and remodeled bathroom, three gutted and remodeled small bedrooms and ceramic tiling in hallway, entryway and living room later, I'm finally getting to where I have time to think about something other than SAND, TAPE, PAINT, CEMENT, TILE, GROUT, SAND, TAPE, PAINT, CEMENT, TILE, GROUT. That's the end of the tales of woe. I feel better now. I'm thrilled to be back in action so let's get back to talking about lifting closures and avoiding new ones. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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