SailAway Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Just received this... WESTERN SLOPE NO-FEE COALITIONP.O. Box 135, Durango, CO 81302 www.WesternSlopeNoFee.org DEAR PUBLIC LANDS SUPPORTER, The day has finally arrived when we can begin to see the end of access fees for public lands. A bill has been introduced in the U.S. Senate, with bipartisan sponsorship, to repeal the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act, also known as the Recreation Access Tax, or RAT. Please take a few moments to celebrate, and pat yourself on the back for all the effort over the last 10 years by every one of you that has brought this about. Then get ready to go to work. This landmark legislation is going to require an all-out grassroots effort to achieve passage. We do not yet have a bill number assigned, so hold off briefly from contacting Congress, as having a number will be important when you ask for their support. We will be sending more details about the bill and how you can help get it passed in the coming days and weeks. THANK YOU for your support, which is what made this happen. Kitty Benzar, President News Release Press Release of Senator Crapo BAUCUS, CRAPO BILL WOULD NIX RECREATION FEES Montana, Idaho Sens. Team Up To Repeal Recreation Access Tax Contact: Susan Wheeler Monday, December 10, 2007 Washington, DC -- The U.S. Forest Service and other federal agencies would be blocked from charging Americans higher fees to access their public lands under legislation introduced today by two prominent Western lawmakers. Idaho Senator Mike Crapo today joined Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Montana) in introducing the much-anticipated Fee Repeal and Expanded Access Act of 2007. The bill would revoke authority given federal agencies, with the exception of the National Park Service, in 2004 to institute new fees and increase existing fees at campgrounds, trailheads, and other public areas. Specifically, the bill repeals the 2004-passed Federal Lands Recreational Enhancement Act, sometimes called the recreational access tax, and reinstates legislation dating back to 1965 that limits the use of fees on public lands. Baucus, a long-time critic of the fees, said the current system amounts to double taxation. "Americans already pay to use their public lands on April 15," Baucus said. "We shouldn’t be taxed twice to go fishing, hiking, or camping on OUR public lands. It just doesn't make any sense. That's why Mike and I are going to fight like the dickens to get this bill passed." The senators noted that both the Montana and Idaho State Legislatures passed resolutions to repeal FLREA. Crapo said, "As an outdoorsman and legislator, I have always supported fair and reasonable access to our nation's public lands. Mandatory user fees for access to many of those lands limits accessibility to those who can afford the cost and results in a "pay-to-play" system that is unacceptable. I also fully recognize that we need to adequately fund recreation activities on federal lands and will continue to fight in Congress to make sure the funding needs of our public lands management agencies are met." Debates have flared up in communities across the West as fees began to rise after the 2004 bill was passed. Baucus said he hopes his bill will help resolve those disputes. Kitty Benzar, president of the Western Slope No-Fee Coalition, hailed the bill. Baucus worked closely with Benzar as well as the late Robert Funkhouser, who recently passed away, in crafting the legislation. "This bill will bring an end to a failed experiment that has for 10 years burdened Americans with a double tax and kept them away from public lands they have always enjoyed, Benzar said. "I applaud this bipartisan effort." The Baucus-Crapo bill would: • Repeal the FLREA • Reinstate the fee authorities established by the 1965 Land and Water Conservation Act • Reinstate the National Parks Pass system • Cap the amount that can be charged for entrance to national parks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerhouse Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 that all sound good , but then who will pay ? just more taxes ? I agree that everyone with or without, money should be able to see and use our lands, but someone must help pay for the upkeep . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Cheese Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) they can find it elsewhere in the budget, like the billions of dollars allocated to build a border fence that JUST got scrubbed OR just get the welfare c*ck - a - roaches off the taxpayer hind tit im just saying Edited December 11, 2007 by richard cheese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1BADYFZ Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Im sure they will pay for it with more taxes but the idea is to use the money that is allocated for these charges and stop spending it on something else like they always do.. Im sure theere is more then enough dough to make us and the truu huggers happy, it's just the money is re-directed for some other project and then they cant use it on what's needed(off roading)DUH!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Saw Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I can show you one example, DUMONT. Besides the widening of the river crossing where the hell else has our money gone?? They spent 1/4 million on RECYCLED I-15 junk to "pave" the road and look how well that worked. The fees keep going up but where is it going?? Nothing has changed except the cost to play... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunefreak Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I can show you one example, DUMONT. Besides the widening of the river crossing where the hell else has our money gone?? They spent 1/4 million on RECYCLED I-15 junk to "pave" the road and look how well that worked. The fees keep going up but where is it going?? Nothing has changed except the cost to play... You really need to attend a TRT meeting to get a better understanding of how things work. 1st off, the road was never supposed to be PAVED. The recycled pavement was only to control dust. It actually worked REALLY WELL. The recycled asphalt was actually cheaper than the type 2 gravel that they would have had to purchase anyways to do entrance road maintenance. Per Mike Trost (BLM maintenance) There are no plans to ever PAVE the road. It is a dirt road and nothing more than that. 2nd, the fees went up because the BLM lost a bunch of its funding (green sticker money and grants) for Dumont. So yes, things have changed. The public just doesn't see these things. 3rd, Here is the breakdown of how the fee money was spent last year. Click here. You can see for yourself just how expensive it is for medical staff, travel expenses for BLM, road maintenance, etc. I understand your frustration, but you really need to have a better understanding of things and get more involved before you are so quick to complain about how the fees associated with Dumont work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandBox_Kid Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I understand your frustration, but you really need to have a better understanding of things and get more involved before you are so quick to complain about how the fees associated with Dumont work. Amen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGP Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 right on Pete!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Amen. You said it Brother!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGP Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 and how many people that bitchand complain all of the time showed up to the trt meeting? "which was held on a saturday so that these people could show up" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Amen. You said it Brother!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1BADYFZ Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Do you guy's think that the way they spent the money is right and that those cost's are legit, anyone can punch in numbers so it doesent mean that they are honest about it. They can do alot more with the money then they do guy's, even if i dont attend meetings doesent mean they are doing there best with it, thanks for the 10 bathrooms and the EMT's on holiday weekend's so please explain where the rest of the money goes.. I feel we are making them a whopping amount of money and personally feel that my tax dollars are enough to pay for this, BUT WHAT AM I THINKING.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Princess Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Rhino Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Oh BELIEVE ME, as a business owner, I REALLY feel I pay my fair share of taxes, (that IS a whole other arguement) but here is my concern about this bill. Who is going to pick up what is needed for Dumont to be the Dumont we know and LOVE?? I'll pay what ever enterance fee (as long as its fair!) I need to, to keep what is a play spot for us.... course thats just my two cents.... or 6 figures in taxes :porn: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltr450rider Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I personally dont have a problem paying for Dumont or anywhere else we ride as long as that money goes into maintaining and improving the area, and it's somewhat noticeable. Dumont has bathrooms and a medical staff, that to me is all I need to have a fun safe weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunefreak Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Do you guy's think that the way they spent the money is right and that those cost's are legit, anyone can punch in numbers so it doesent mean that they are honest about it. What do you suggest gets done if you think they are lying about how the money is spent? Are you ready to prove otherwise with some sort of facts? Wanna get everyone on DDR together and hire a lawyer to try and prove that there is some sort of conspiracy and sue the government? Good luck with that, Sam! They can do alot more with the money then they do guy's, even if i dont attend meetings doesent mean they are doing there best with it, thanks for the 10 bathrooms and the EMT's on holiday weekend's so please explain where the rest of the money goes.. What do you think could be done instead? Have you actually looked at the cost of everything and the break down? I'll post the link up again. Click here. It clearly shows that there was an unspent carry-over amount of $111,877.07 that carried over to the 07/08 year. I really doubt there will be as much $$ carry-over into the next season due to the decrease in funding that the BLM is no longer getting from grants and green sticker money. I guess we will have to wait and see. And Sam, I think many people don't really see the importance of the TRT meetings. If you have a question or concern, the BLM is VERY willing to listen to your input at the meetings. I never really thought simply going to a meeting would have that much impact on anything. Trust me, it does. Would you rather have a blacktop road and dumpters rather than EMT's and law enforcement? I don't understand. I feel we are making them a whopping amount of money and personally feel that my tax dollars are enough to pay for this, BUT WHAT AM I THINKING.. Once again.Click here. :porn: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntrsandman Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Just by glancing at the numbers, It would have been close to a wash if the road and river crossing were never done. I am glad they did though. The extra fees that we will pay should offset the deficit that was put on the 07/08 budget. IF the restrooms don't get graffitied, blown up, or filled with trash, and the tree huggers are kept happy and everyone who uses dumont respects it, THEN there should be a surplus to make more improvements. The Govt. did notice the increase in dumonts use and have made improvements to keep the neighbors happy and make the dunes accessible. That fee is still cheap! Even for a day! My 2 cents (A chair for 87 bucks?) :xmas7: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EY3BA11 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Just by glancing at the numbers, It would have been close to a wash if the road and river crossing were never done. I am glad they did though. The extra fees that we will pay should offset the deficit that was put on the 07/08 budget. IF the restrooms don't get graffitied, blown up, or filled with trash, and the tree huggers are kept happy and everyone who uses dumont respects it, THEN there should be a surplus to make more improvements. The Govt. did notice the increase in dumonts use and have made improvements to keep the neighbors happy and make the dunes accessible. That fee is still cheap! Even for a day! My 2 cents (A chair for 87 bucks?) :xmas7: Hell you think 85 bucks for a chair is bad you should see what my boss spent on his... let alone what the credit union i used to work for spent on chairs... they retrofitted the place with "ERGONOMIC" chairs at the tune of $500 bucks a piece... Hell even the el cheapo high back chairs at office repo are in the 50-80 range.. so i can see it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Saw Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 You really need to attend a TRT meeting to get a better understanding of how things work. 1st off, the road was never supposed to be PAVED. The recycled pavement was only to control dust. It actually worked REALLY WELL. The recycled asphalt was actually cheaper than the type 2 gravel that they would have had to purchase anyways to do entrance road maintenance. Per Mike Trost (BLM maintenance) There are no plans to ever PAVE the road. It is a dirt road and nothing more than that. 2nd, the fees went up because the BLM lost a bunch of its funding (green sticker money and grants) for Dumont. So yes, things have changed. The public just doesn't see these things. 3rd, Here is the breakdown of how the fee money was spent last year. Click here. You can see for yourself just how expensive it is for medical staff, travel expenses for BLM, road maintenance, etc. I understand your frustration, but you really need to have a better understanding of things and get more involved before you are so quick to complain about how the fees associated with Dumont work. First of all I apologize for my oversight using the word "PAVE", I guess I assumed incorrectly that it was understood what I meant. I know the recycled asphalt was supposed to keep the dust down and give a better surface (more durable) and not that the road would actually be paved. I noticed very little difference besides that larger potholes then usual. I think that money could have been better spent by more water trucks and more graters; even a more permanent, if more expensive, pee gravel or similar. Secondly, here is good example of what "doesnt happen" all the time with the "clicks" here. All the one liners are great, thanks for all the worth while input guys. I can print you a great list of expenses right now showing how you owe me 5 million dollars. It doesnt mean the info is accurate. Show me reciepts and copies of bids and acceptance letters and we'll talk. Even taking into account "inflation" show me proof that the expenses have gone this high in just ten years. Remember when there was NO ENTRANCE FEE?? With the huge taxes the State of Commiefornia charges, no one is going to convince me they cant afford to take care of most of the cost to maintain Dumont. Its ok to charge $4000/month for a studio apartment with an ocean view and build 6 lane each direction freeways every half mile, but no money is left to help spots like Dumont?? Do we have any figures on how many vehicles come to Dumont for a big weekend?? I have heard numbers from 2000 to 10,000. Lets see those figures and then divide that by the fees they say they collected and see if the numbers jive. Did I go to the TRT meeting?? NO, sorry I dont feel like driving over 2 hours to hear them tell me what they are going to do. Ill read it online and save the cash and hassle. If you really think the Cali BLM gives 2 $hits about your opinions on what they should charge, you are dreaming. The money the BLM collects stays with the BLM. Thats why the tickets they write for moving violations do not go on your driving record. The DMV does not recognize their traffic authority. The more money they make, the more new vehicles and equipment they get the next year. Why do you think the Sheriffs go out there?? To get THEIRS, the money is NOT SHARED... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalalien Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 (edited) I gladly pay the fees. What I would like them to do is use common sense when enforcing the law. Telling us we can't have loud pipes. Well I drove 2 hours out in the middle of the desert so I could be as loud as I want. Telling me with a straight face I need a spark arrestor when the nearest bush is a 1/4 mile away. Sand doesn't burn. Stuff like that. The ranger at Four Stroke Wars told us if we have loud pipes we could not even ride to the bathroom... yes he said that... Hard to hand them my money with a smile after talking to someone who thinks like that. Edited December 12, 2007 by metalalien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EY3BA11 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Did I go to the TRT meeting?? NO, sorry I dont feel like driving over 2 hours to hear them tell me what they are going to do. First of all hows it goin.. 2nd i hate to be a douche.. but at these meetings the BLM and TRT take very much inton consideration what us as duners have to say about what should and shouldnt happen at dumont.. Hell ask your parents how the meeting went... IT was a eye opener to say the least i was on the same train as you until i actually WENT to one!! They do take comment and direction from us the duners on what we would like to see happen in dumont. As far as the cost to get there... that little nissan or whatever your commuter is doesnt cost that much and hell you could have carpooled with me or someone else i had 2 extra seats open and would have gladly given you a ride.. Next time they ahve a meeting that you can attend thing about going it will really open your eyes trust me on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntrsandman Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I can show you one example, DUMONT. Besides the widening of the river crossing where the hell else has our money gone?? They spent 1/4 million on RECYCLED I-15 junk to "pave" the road and look how well that worked. The fees keep going up but where is it going?? Nothing has changed except the cost to play... Then don't go! Stay home and be the "house wife" you claim to be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Ok, guess I will have to offer up my 2 cents, First of all if you attended the meetings you would see that the BLM does account for their spending. Every year they must provide us (TRT) with their operating costs and budget forecasts. The TRT then is able to request documentation on those costs. Could the BLM be forging the numbers and us not see it, yeah they could but you have to remember these are goverment employees in a medium sized office and everyone in the office would have to be "onboard" for it to work, even the law enforcement guys. I personally think that is a pretty far stretch even for the conspiciary guys. The total vistors to Dumont is placed at 120,000 per year and I believe the figure they use to calculate people is 3.5 per vehicle that has to buy a tag. If you do the ruff numbers and DON'T count season pass buyers it looks like this 120,000 divided by 3.5 = 34285.7 tags. x $30.00 = $1,028,571. Ok not a bad # but if you take out the season pass holders and the people who have more than the 3.5 average in their RV you see the #'s drop quickly. Now if you look at the "click here" that Pete posted you will see that the numbers don't even out as far as cost vs. exoense. Take out any Congressional monies and green sticker money and you will see why the fees were raised. I am very proud of what the BLM and the TRT have accomplished, you see no improvements? Less to no dust on the road that is maintained(imagine that road with the traffic it has on it now vs. 10 years ago. You would need a 4x4 just to get in. Let's see, the 12 toilets that have to be maintained/pumped/painted to remove graffiti and repaired from damage because some people have no respect. The fact that you have 2 volunteers there on site to assist during the week when the rangers are on duty but not neccassarly at Dumont. They get paid a small stipend to live in the middle of nowhere to make sure YOU have access to emergency services if you need them. The bridge went to 3 lanes instead of due to user fees, no more traffic jams on busy weekends. Larger EMT and LEO prescence on all weekends than ever before because the amount of users is up and therefore safety and law enforcement are needed to keep the uneducated and uncaring people from harming themselves, others and property. I am tired of the whining about the fees, you pay more to sit in a bar and drink 6 dollar beers and gamble quarters than a whole season pass costs and you complain? Tell me another sport/place that you can have access to 365 days a year for $120.00? Hell a round of golf in Vegas is $200.00 and a ski pass is close to $100.00 per DAY, that's not 3.5 people sking that's one person. I believe that in the whole scheme of things that it is not unreasonable, Granted I have always believed that we should not be double taxes and I pay way more than my fair share but again it is a small price to pay for such a place, again that's just my opinion but I am proud of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyHour Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Ok, guess I will have to offer up my 2 cents, First of all if you attended the meetings you would see that the BLM does account for their spending. Every year they must provide us (TRT) with their operating costs and budget forecasts. The TRT then is able to request documentation on those costs. Could the BLM be forging the numbers and us not see it, yeah they could but you have to remember these are goverment employees in a medium sized office and everyone in the office would have to be "onboard" for it to work, even the law enforcement guys. I personally think that is a pretty far stretch even for the conspiciary guys. The total vistors to Dumont is placed at 120,000 per year and I believe the figure they use to calculate people is 3.5 per vehicle that has to buy a tag. If you do the ruff numbers and DON'T count season pass buyers it looks like this 120,000 divided by 3.5 = 34285.7 tags. x $30.00 = $1,028,571. Ok not a bad # but if you take out the season pass holders and the people who have more than the 3.5 average in their RV you see the #'s drop quickly. Now if you look at the "click here" that Pete posted you will see that the numbers don't even out as far as cost vs. exoense. Take out any Congressional monies and green sticker money and you will see why the fees were raised. I am very proud of what the BLM and the TRT have accomplished, you see no improvements? Less to no dust on the road that is maintained(imagine that road with the traffic it has on it now vs. 10 years ago. You would need a 4x4 just to get in. Let's see, the 12 toilets that have to be maintained/pumped/painted to remove graffiti and repaired from damage because some people have no respect. The fact that you have 2 volunteers there on site to assist during the week when the rangers are on duty but not neccassarly at Dumont. They get paid a small stipend to live in the middle of nowhere to make sure YOU have access to emergency services if you need them. The bridge went to 3 lanes instead of due to user fees, no more traffic jams on busy weekends. Larger EMT and LEO prescence on all weekends than ever before because the amount of users is up and therefore safety and law enforcement are needed to keep the uneducated and uncaring people from harming themselves, others and property. I am tired of the whining about the fees, you pay more to sit in a bar and drink 6 dollar beers and gamble quarters than a whole season pass costs and you complain? Tell me another sport/place that you can have access to 365 days a year for $120.00? Hell a round of golf in Vegas is $200.00 and a ski pass is close to $100.00 per DAY, that's not 3.5 people sking that's one person. I believe that in the whole scheme of things that it is not unreasonable, Granted I have always believed that we should not be double taxes and I pay way more than my fair share but again it is a small price to pay for such a place, again that's just my opinion but I am proud of it. Amen brother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randog Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Amen brother I have nothing worth adding to this post!! - I have nothing worth adding to this post!! - I have nothing worth adding to this post!! - x2 You have a great perspective Terry. Thanks for all your help with our D. I don't have a problem with paying the fees, As long as it stays open. I know the majority of that outcome is in the hands of the users. Scary. Anyways, I wanna play, So I'll pay. I think it's reasonable. R- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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